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Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich): Is the hon. Gentleman really telling us that the Opposition have no problem with the idea of people being interviewed, but have a problem with the idea that people will not be forced to take whatever job is offered to them during the interviews?
Mr. Duncan Smith: That is not what I am talking about. I am saying that the principle follows the jobseeker's allowance principle. As the hon. Lady knows, jobseekers are obliged to take employment if it is there, and this process follows from that. My point is that, over the next few years, the Government will realise that they have not dealt with the second part of the equation. If new jobs are to be created, industry's costs must fall; if they rise, the jobs cannot be created.
As was pointed out earlier, there are nearly 1 million lone parents out there, a large proportion of whom will want and need work as a result of the Government's present attitudes. Not enough work will be created for those people, let alone all the others involved. My point is very simple: this is a standard equation.
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire):
May I develop the analogy that my hon. Friend used earlier, in order to
Mr. Duncan Smith:
That is essentially what I am saying, but my answer to the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) was quite simple. I shall explain it once more--again, very simply.
This may represent a clear dividing line between the two sides of the House, but, whether the Government like it or not, if the cost of employing people is raised, there will be no jobs for them. If we do not believe that, and if a division is created between supply and demand, we shall experience the problem that now exists in Euroland, of which the hon. Lady knows only too well. There, the costs and burdens imposed on business have risen dramatically over the past 18 years or so, which has resulted in probably the highest levels of unemployment that various European countries have experienced since before the war. That has happened simply because those countries have not dealt with the equation to which I refer, whereas, by and large, the United States accepts that there are two sides to it.
The Government are trying to have it both ways. As was said earlier, the Secretary of State for Education and Employment is now talking about "three strikes and you're out". The Government are using lots of big tough language about getting people into work, but--this is the other side--what happens when the costs bite, as they are already beginning to? How many jobs will be created that are not already there, or likely to be there--jobs that are relevant to the legislation, and that the Government appear to expect?
Mr. Pond:
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, in recent years, countries in what he describes as Euroland have been rather more successful than us in creating employment, and that the previous Conservative Government left a larger proportion of non-pensioner households with no one in work than was the case in any other EU member state? Is he also aware that, in the United States, increases in the minimum wage were associated with growth in employment in those very sectors? Is it not a fact, therefore, that the Government's employment measures will ensure that, when people come through the other side of the gateway, there will be jobs for them?
Mr. Duncan Smith:
With respect, I do not know where the hon. Gentleman has been for the past 10 years. If he honestly thinks that employment in Euroland is better than it is here and that its policies have a fantastic effect, why does he think that his Prime Minister goes over there, lecturing all those countries almost weekly--the hon. Gentleman is off-message on the subject--that it is not good enough and that they have to be more like us? The hon. Gentleman has to realise that he cannot have it both ways. I hope that it does not get back to 10 Downing
We have been more successful at creating jobs here because of the pressure to keep costs down. That lid is now blown off. We will find that it becomes more and more difficult.
Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead):
Does not the truth lie between the two points that have been made? Over the past 20 years, this country has been far more successful in creating jobs than Europe, but our Governments have been far more successful in destroying those new jobs. What is significant about the past two years is that we have not had the economic downturn that practically everyone prophesied.
About 7,000 people are registered unemployed in Birkenhead. We have not recovered from the loss of a shipyard and a steel mill, which occurred under the previous Government after the foolish way in which they managed the exchange rate. However, even in an area of high unemployment, within a single year, more people come on and off the books than, at any point, are a stock of unemployment.
Given the extraordinary mobility of numbers moving on and off the books, even in an area such as Birkenhead, is not there everything to be said for the Minister's argument that, if we have a proactive welfare service, one of its tasks is to help those who stay longest in the queue, and who find it most difficult to get jobs, to the front of the queue to take some of the jobs that are there--despite what Governments do as they come and go--so that they are not left languishing at the back? That means, of course, that unless there is an increase in the number of jobs available, some people will have to spend slightly longer in the dole queue than they would otherwise have done. But, even if we take that static--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I should say to the right hon. Gentleman that the intervention is getting rather long.
Mr. Field:
To bring a long intervention to a conclusion, surely there is a case for having these work-focused, single gateway interviews to help those who have been in the queue the longest to the front of the queue, and to get the jobs that are available.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
I always enjoy listening to the right hon. Gentleman. I recognise that it was a long intervention, but it was very interesting. The first point that he made was about conditions in Europe and Britain. If he looks at the figures over the past 12 years or so, he will find that, by and large, this country has been successful at producing private sector jobs. In the rest of Euroland, the public sector has been the main area of job creation.
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, if one gets an imbalance, in the way that those other countries have, it creates more and more costs and fewer and fewer private jobs. In essence, that is what has been going on. We can call someone employed but if, in a year's time, that employment falls through and no one else is able to be employed, that is destroying jobs, not making them.
On the other general point that the right hon. Gentleman makes about what we should be doing, I said earlier--I hope that he gives us credit for it--that we are not opposed to the principle of bringing people in.
He will remember that when he was a Minister, in many discussions I agreed that, regardless of whether one agrees with the jobseeker's allowance, interviews are a continuation of implementing the JSA idea, although perhaps by applying fewer strictures than were applied under the JSA regime.
Opposition Members generally have said that requiring interviews is the right move, and we do not question it. I am simply concerned that the Government should deal with the other side of the equation, which they have not yet done. If they think that they have dealt with it, they are simply sticking their heads in the sand. The types of people described by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) will feel endless frustration if they are not able to find work.
I accept that the current system has some slack in it. Any of our constituents who have seen the many people who should and could be in work, but are not, will be aware of the slack. However, the issue is greater than simply how to deal with that situation. The programme, if it is to be successful, cannot create only frustration. If it starts causing major frustration, we will simply end up with many people trying, in almost every way, to avoid the process--bringing us back to square one, and requiring us to impose major demands and strictures simply to get people to the first interview.
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead, when he was a Minister, always made the point that people should, ultimately, see the programme in a positive, not a negative light. I agree with that. I am therefore telling the Government that if people are to regard the programme positively, Ministers will have to strike the right balance, which they have not yet done.
Ministers cannot have it both ways. They may think that as the economy is performing reasonably well, the cost side of the equation is not a problem, but--as hon. Members will have noted--employment costs are rising dramatically. That will cause big problems for the Government. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead mentioned the robustness of the economy. However, I remind Labour Members--whether they like it or not--that the economy is robust as a direct result of the tough decisions taken, over 18 years, by the previous Government. Many countries in Europe have not taken those decisions, and have consequently had problems. That is the point that I was making to the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich. The Government cannot have it both ways. If they want to get the programme right, they will have to get both sides of the equation right. If they want people to look for work, they have to accept that they must reduce employment costs.
Our amendment (a), deleting subsection (4) of the new clause, is intended to complement our other amendments in this group. We tabled them because we believe that the Government's proposals are rather messy, as some of them will apply in different ways at different times, thereby causing problems.
In amendment No. 87, we propose removing the provisions allowing massive leeway to the people mentioned in clause 49--but who are specified also in
Government amendment No. 16. In the Bill, a tremendously large number of people are given dramatic powers to decide who should attend interviews. As the Minister may know--although he did not attend the debate--I made that point to the Secretary of State on Second Reading, saying that I had deep concerns about the provision.
5.45 pm
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