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Mr. Rendel: I am slightly sorry to have to oppose some of what the Tories have said, because there has been agreement between us on many of their amendments and ours. However, I do not accept their amendments in this group. Amendment (a) to new clause 10 would restrict the right of local areas to take decisions in their own way. There may be good reasons why some areas do not want to go along with what happens elsewhere. It has been a long-standing principle of the Liberal Democrats that we would like local authorities to be given, as far as possible, the widest chance to take their own decisions in their own way where there are regional differences that may make that appropriate.
In the amendments, the hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) is restricting the opportunities for specific cases to be exempted from the gateway. That would run entirely contrary to many of the amendments that I tabled in Committee, in which I sought to ameliorate some of the potentially unfortunate effects of the single gateway by ensuring that there were widespread exemptions from the difficulties that otherwise might be imposed on someone seeking benefits.
I cannot go along with the Conservative amendments in this case, and it seems that the new clause will be acceptable. Having said that, it is worth bringing to people's attention, as we did in Committee, some of the problems that the Minister has not addressed properly. Everybody would accept that there are good reasons for doing our utmost to make sure that people who want work--whether they are single parents or people with disabilities who may have had trouble getting work in the past--are given the opportunity to get work.
The difficulty with the single gateway is not that people are not being given the opportunity to get into work--that is widely accepted--but simply what will happen if they do not attend the interview, and whether that carries certain implications in terms of their benefits. The Government's consistent answer is that, as the interview is for the benefit of the individual, why should he or she not want to come? They say that they are trying to avoid fraudulent reasons for not attending interviews.
I quite accept that there are good reasons for doingour utmost to avoid any fraudulent use of the benefits system--we wish to avoid and counter fraud just as much as anyone else--but I still believe that there may be cases where people do not attend interviews for good reasons, which may not be clear to the authorities. It was to avoid that situation that we tabled a number of amendments in Committee, and I am sorry to say that the Government would not accept them.
The Government have not properly answered the question on the problems that may arise when somebody does not come to an interview for what may be, to them, good reasons--reasons which, if most of us knew them, we might accept as good reasons. However, those reasons may not necessarily be known to the authorities, who then impose some form of cut in benefits or refuse to allow benefits to start for people who do not come to the interview. The Government have still not answered that properly.
By forcing people to come to interviews by imposing certain sanctions if they do not, the Government are forcing people to do something that is for their own benefit. If it is for their own benefit, surely the Government ought to be able to persuade people of that. If they cannot, it is odd that they should take powers to force somebody--by imposing, or by threatening to impose, benefit sanctions--to do something that is supposedly for their own benefit.
Mr. Burns:
As my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) said, the single work-focused gateway is to be welcomed in principle. In no way do I part company from him on that. I agree also with the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) that any sane person would wish to give the maximum opportunity to those who are not in work to find it.
It is a myth that a disproportionate amount of people who cannot find work are, to use the jargon, scroungers or loafers. They are not--they desperately want to get work to enhance the quality of their lives and to provide for themselves and their families. Given the economic cycle and certain educational circumstances, some need to be assisted to do that.
I shall focus on those suffering from mental illness. I was perplexed by the Minister's comment that he and the Government were consulting the different disability groups and lobby organisations. As I have said, there is a great difference between listening and acting upon what they have heard, and I am concerned about how carefully the Government have listened. The Minister said that the National Schizophrenia Fellowship fully supported what the Government were doing, and said that it was operating a pilot scheme for the Government.
Mr. Andrew Smith:
It is possible that the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood or misheard me. I said that
Mr. Burns:
The Minister will have to read Hansard in the morning, or perhaps his private secretary will read the galley proofs before Hansard is published. I distinctly heard him say that the NSF supported what the Government were doing. He then went on to say what he has just repeated about the pilot scheme. Yet the briefing from the NSF to Members of Parliament for today's debate states categorically:
Mr. Burns:
My hon. Friend may be right, and that fact may not enhance the chances of the hon. Member for Gravesham--although, no doubt, he will be a gift to the Whips, who will need people to do the Government's business in future.
The NSF carried out a survey last year of 660 people suffering from mental illness, and asked about their benefits and the Government's review of the welfare system. The findings are relevant to the comments of a number of my hon. Friends both today and in Committee. The mental health of 55 per cent. of people with schizophrenia and 60 per cent. of those with depression had worsened as a result of the Government's review, according to the survey. One in three people had debts, the majority of which were unpaid electricity, heating and telephone bills. More than half the people in receipt of disability living allowance used the money to pay for food, clothes and bills, so the benefit subsidised their basic necessities. The majority of people who took part in the survey felt that their mental health problems prevented them from working.
The NSF says:
We should consider whether we should make exceptions in certain limited circumstances. I do not think that that would open the floodgates for every special
interest group to make a demand. There is an overwhelming case for not putting any additional burden on people who suffer from mental illness.
The NSF says that clause 49, which is affected by new clause 10 and the subsidiary amendments, will cause problems because people may be persuaded into seeking jobs that they are not ready to take, and that the stressful nature of the interview itself may cause irreparable medical harm and cause relapses among those who have begun on the road to recovery.
Mr. Gray
: Does my hon. Friend agree that the question of who should be exempt from the interviews need not be a value judgment such as he is describing but could be determined according to whether the people's benefits themselves are dependent on the fact that they are not able to work? People on severe disablement allowance and incapacity benefit would then automatically be exempt.
"We believe that people with severe mental illness should be exempted from compulsory work-focused interviews."
That is clear. There are no grounds for misinterpretation, or for arguing another case. That rather contradicts the impression given by the Minister, and it certainly contradicts the sycophantic intervention from the hon. Member for Gravesham (Mr. Pond). I know that there may be a Government reshuffle, but any sycophant must have an element of self-respect.
"As it stands, the Bill would prevent thousands of people with a severe mental illness accessing the financial support that they require to regain and sustain their mental health. Worse than this, some of the changes will actually create additional barriers and stress which will increase the likelihood of a relapse."
I urge the Minister to think again. I understand, because of the neatness of his mind and the need to legislate, why he does not want to make too many--if any--exemptions to the broad thrust of the policy, which might allow a coach and horses to be driven through the Government's ultimate aim, but there are certain groups of people who, through no fault of their own, are incapable, because of their mental state, of coping with a system that has been proposed for what I accept are understandable reasons.
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