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7 pm
Mr. Andrew Smith: We have had a wide-ranging debate. At one point, I wondered whether some Conservative Members were trying to spin it out a little,but that would have been an unworthy thought.
The hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Mr. Duncan Smith) spoke for a long time about matters that were tangential to the gateway, but which are none the less important to the economy and, as he said, to the supply of jobs. He did not mention the fact that we now have record levels of employment and, what is more, record levels of vacancies for this stage of the economic cycle. He referred to vacancies, however, and should accept that their number is not totally unrelated to the tough decisions that this Government took in their early months in office--the fact that we made Bank of England operations independent, got the public finances under control, invested wisely in public services and set about raising training and education standards and introducing initiatives such as the new deal. All those have helped to get record numbers into employment.
Therefore, the House will take with a large pinch of salt the hon. Gentleman's propaganda that somehow there cannot be any jobs out there or that we are damaging prospects for people on the other side of the gateway. Nothing could be further from the truth.
After all that, we heard that the hon. Member for Chingford and Woodford Green not only supports the single work-focused gateway in principle, but concedes that it does not impose burdens on business. As for his attempted arguments about variation in the Bill and his worry that regulations would apply differently in some areas from others, let me assure him that the only reason
for that variation between local authorities, which the Opposition amendment would strike out of the Bill, is to operate the single work-focused gateway in the pilot areas without imposing the same requirements on the rest of the country. That is plain common sense for any initiative that is being piloted. It is absurd for the hon. Gentleman to claim that that variation should be struck out of the Bill.
The hon. Gentleman also went on about the fact that variations between areas would allow greater discretion in some--it was difficult to follow his argument--but that is not the case. There is consistency throughout the pilots. Amendments Nos. 88 to 90 would not deal with that problem, but would merely cut local authorities out of the single gateway, which would be contrary to its central purpose and to the principle that the hon. Gentleman said he supported.
Mr. Duncan Smith:
I do not intend to delay the right hon. Gentleman, but in answer to my arguments all that he has offered so far is that he can assure me--just as he assured my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) in Committee. That does not rub. When individuals are taking decisions and, therefore, varying their decisions on the ground, how much notice will they take of the right hon. Gentleman's assurances? They will have no idea what they mean--they do not mean anything, other than what he thought at the time.
Mr. Smith:
The Bill means what the Bill means and the amendments and the new clause mean what they mean. In attempting to strike out the different provision in some local authority areas, the hon. Gentleman is either asking us not to run the pilots in a number of pilot areas, or he is saying that it somehow makes sense for every local authority member of staff who is operating the single gateway interviews or registration and orientation to refer on to the Employment Service, the Benefits Agency or the Secretary of State. The hon. Gentleman would erect a great mountain of bureaucracy and rigidity around the operation of the single work-focused gateway, which would make it respond less flexibly, sensitively and efficiently to the needs of clients. Therefore, we can dismiss those arguments.
The hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) spoke cogently about why the Conservative amendments did not make sense and why new clause 10 did, so I thank him for his support. However, I cannot go along with his arguments, which amounted to saying that we should simply make the gateway voluntary. Of course, many people would volunteer to take part, but it shows extraordinary naivety about how some people approach the benefits system if he imagines that one could simply leave it to that voluntary principle. Apart from anything else, claimants themselves would not see it as fair and neither would it be so.
In the Bill, we are effecting a shift of culture--we believe that it is reasonable to do so--so that having an interview will become a normally accepted part of making a claim on the benefits system. The majority of the British public will think that eminently reasonable. Many of them would be staggered if they knew that so many people access the benefits system at the moment without an interview. Most people would see this as a straightforward, reasonable and commonsense measure, which indeed it is.
I listened carefully to the hon. Member for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns), who argued with great feeling about the difficulties facing people who suffer from mental illness and schizophrenia. I wholly share his views and those of his hon. Friends, including the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning), who spoke on the same subject. Of course, we must be sensitive to the needs of disabled people and those suffering from schizophrenia. The difference between the hon. Members and me is that the Conservative amendment suggests that we can sensibly enshrine exceptions in regulations. The consequences of the amendments would be less flexibility and less ability to respond to individual need. If Conservative Members honestly believe that more regulation--the top-down approach, which the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton said that she did not want--is the right way to deal with a situation that calls for such professional sensitivity, they are the ones who need to think again.
Mr. Burns:
If the right hon. Gentleman accepts the argument and agrees with it, but feels that the amendments are defective and would not achieve the aim, surely he could table his own amendments or, if that is not procedurally possible at this stage, do it through guidelines.
Mr. Smith:
If we felt that the Bill needed an amendment, we would have tabled one. The way to get a responsive, flexible and sensitive system is not to attempt rigidly to define exceptions in regulations; it is to offer proper training and sensible and sensitive guidance to those who are working at the front line, and that is what we are doing.
The bodies that are advising us on the training of personal advisers include not only the Royal National Institute for the Blind and the Royal National Institute for Deaf People but the Mental Health Foundation. Of course, we will take close note of what they say. Like the hon. Gentleman, I have a high regard for the National Schizophrenia Fellowship and other similar bodies that have made representations on the subject. I can assure him and the House that I will make it my business to speak further with those organisations on the way in which guidance is given to front-line staff. We want the legislation to help vulnerable people and not to form some sort of barrier that could worsen their medical condition.
Mrs. Browning:
Will the Minister agree to take advice from the National Autistic Society as well?
Mrs. May:
The Minister talked about responsiveness and sensitivity. He said earlier that if in the middle of an interview, it became clear that the interviewee was overstressed, the interview would be stopped. For some people, including those in the groups mentioned by my hon. Friends the Members for West Chelmsford (Mr. Burns) and for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) and by the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), the stress of attending the interview, having it stopped and being shown the door could be devastating. What support will be available to such people in that situation? What
Mr. Smith:
Training for personal advisers and front-line staff will go through all the difficult situations that we can possibly anticipate. We are being guided in this not only by expert opinion in the Department for Education and Employment and Department of Social Security, and by the considerable expertise of staff in the Benefits Agency and the Employment Service in catering for the needs of clients with difficulties, but by outside expertise and recommendations based on that. If the hon. Lady wants to suggest further bodies with evidence, views or experience that we should consider, we will be pleased to hear from them.
It has been said that it could be stressful for people to get a letter or have an interview but it is not as though people do not encounter that in the present system. An advantage of the single work-focused gateway is that it involves a personal adviser who will have had more training and experience and who will act as a constant point of support. At present, when people with mental illness or other problems inquire about their benefit, they talk to several different people. The new system will offer a constancy of personal support that Opposition Members should recognise as a positive gain over the anonymous, fragmented methods of the past.
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