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3.45 pm
Restrictions, the 50 per cent. tax on occupational pensions over £50 and matter of the contributions records are dealt with in amendment No. 12, to which 68 of my hon. Friends have put their names. I do not know whether amendment No. 7, which amends clause 56, will be pressed to a vote, but I should certainly vote for it. If it is not divided on, I shall regard my vote on amendment No. 12 as standing as a proxy for that amendment because clause 56 is also objectionable.
I know that the youngest people are passported on to incapacity benefit. That is great, and I am all in favour of it. I do not even ask that the same should be done for the rest. All I ask is that we preserve the status quo for the rest. Mark my words: the amendments are not about making improvements; they simply preserve benefits that people have at present, and I think that no one receives excessive benefits.
One problem with benefits is that their names change. I have been around a fair time, and I was here when the precursor of severe disablement allowance was introduced
by the last Labour Government--we could talk about pride in Government then--on 21 November 1974. Barbara Castle said that it
We hear that the amount spent on disabled and chronically sick people has increased. It is a lot more than it was in 1974. It has gone up and so it should have, because it used to be disgraceful. The activities of Labour Members, who increased eligibility and introduced new benefits, paved the way for it to increase. That is not a cause for complaint. It has given people a new dignity and new rights. It is part of the reason why so many disabled people are now in a position to assert themselves, and they do so. They claim their full humanity.
I do not want to be a part of any backtracking. It is not enough to say that we are improving the situation for some people. Of course, I welcome that and our amendment would not destroy that. At the moment, we will be spending rather more than we were, which is good, but we will gradually be saving at the expense of some of the disabled and the chronically sick and I object to that.
It seems extraordinary that we are told that we cannot cherry-pick. I do not see this Bill as a cherry orchard in any case. Surely, the purpose of the parliamentary process is to consider legislation and, if one decides that it is good, to support it, but if one decides that it is a terrible error, to say so and act on it. One acts on that, even if it is against one's own Government.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) reminisced about the time shortly before we came to the House when child benefit was in prospect. I remember that vividly. I have looked round and tried to see a fellow face who was here at that time, who would share my memories. I will share my memories with all my right hon. and hon. Friends. Child benefit was the brainchild of Barbara Castle, who originally tagged it with the name child endowment, which then became the prospect of child benefit. However, we were told that there was a snag and that the trade unionists did not like the measure because it would transfer money from the wallet to the handbag, so it would be dangerous. We were told that some of our supporters might not support us if we introduced child benefit because we were abolishing the child tax allowance. We were told that it was, "dangerous."
Talk about pressure--we were a very tight House then and at a meeting of the parliamentary Labour party in 1976, those of us who were campaigning for the rapid
introduction of child benefit were told by the then Prime Minister, Jim Callaghan, that if we persisted, he would resign and there would be a general election three weeks hence. Compare that with the pressure today. We stuck and child benefit was introduced. The Prime Minister did not resign and there was not a general election in three weeks--it was another three years and then, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead said, all the candidates were able to stand with pride on a platform of improvement for children.
I do not want my hon. Friends to feel that the only way to be loyal to our Labour Government is to accept without question everything that comes from those on the Front Bench. It is also our duty to try to improve our Government's legislation. When all is said and done, we are here to represent our constituents.
I do not ask those hon. Members who do not agree with the amendments to support them. Those who do not agree and who feel that they have a legitimate argument, such as my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford), should vote the amendments down by all means--that is their duty. However, I suggest to all those who feel uneasy about stepping back and removing existing rights that the best way to feel at ease with oneself in these circumstances is to support our amendment. I hope that quite a lot of my hon. Friends will be in that Lobby tonight.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset):
This afternoon's debate is similar to the debate that we had at a similar time, but in the morning and not the afternoon, a few days ago. In great part, it has been illuminating to those of us who care about the history of political parties. We have heard from Labour Members passionate and powerful speeches about the Labour party discovering itself.
The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) also said something about the Conservative party; he accused us of being the Unification church. I for one would remind him that the religion of which he is one of the prime advocates in this country also believes in the road to Damascus. The Conservative party has gone through that sort of conversion. [Interruption.] Yes, we have, because we made an honourable, and dreadful, series of errors. They were honourable and those on the Treasury Bench should not pout too much at this point because they are susceptible to a similar error today.
The error that we made was to suppose that we could endlessly target, that the result of targeting and means-testing would be that we would deliver a smaller amount of taxpayers' money to a smaller group of people who most needed it and that by those means, we would better distribute income with a lower call on the taxpayers' funds. We were abundantly wrong: we increased dependency and the social security budget, thus increasing the call on the taxpayer. That is the history of the matter.
Today, as on Monday night, we are talking about the direction of change. No one imagines that the measure, the clauses and the amendments will suddenly transform the whole of social security. We all know that it is a question of incremental change of direction. What will be decided when hon. Members from both sides of the House, I hope, go through the same Lobby later this afternoon is whether we are to announce that as a collectivity--all of us in the House--we believe that we have to change direction and move to a position in which
instead of increasing continually the amount of means-testing and dependency, we increase instead the incentive for people responsibly to look after their own affairs so that they do not need to depend so much on benefit.
Mr. Chris Pond (Gravesham):
The hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) invited Labour Members to join him in the Lobby. One of the main reasons why I will support the Bill as its stands and oppose the amendments is that, after working for 20 years for the poverty lobby and seeing what the Conservatives did to the poorest and most vulnerable, under no circumstances could I join them in the Lobby.
The Conservatives say that perhaps they were wrong. A moment ago, the hon. Member for West Dorset was on the Damascus bypass. In the early hours of Tuesday morning, the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) offered to slip into a hair shirt, albeit one designed in Savile row. Despite what they are now saying, for 18 years they supported a Government who did much damage to the living standards, hopes and aspirations of the poorest. They were all looking the other way. It was the longest lapse of concentration that we have seen. For 18 years, they did not notice what they were doing. They did not notice their doubling and trebling of the extent of means-testing or their attack on national insurance benefits and the national insurance principle. However much synthetic compassion they can manufacture in this debate for party political purposes, I will not join them in the Lobby. We must ensure that no one forgets what they did in government and what they would do again to the poorest, if they ever had the chance.
What the Conservatives did in those 18 years shapes the welfare reform debate. They created a climate of fear. It is not only the cuts throughout the 18 years; one of the most cynical cuts was the benefit integrity project, introduced only three days before the general election with the explicit purpose of cutting the benefits of the most severely disabled. I am proud that our Government have changed that and are ensuring that people get the benefits to which they are entitled, no more and no less.
"will provide new, non-means-tested help for those of working age who are deprived of the opportunity to earn their living and who have no rights under existing contributory insurance schemes."
It was, she said, a brand new benefit. She said:
"This is quite an historic moment. We have made an important breakthrough here. These are only the first steps towards a new policy for the disabled over a wide field. These first steps bring a new non-means-tested security to nearly 250,000 people whose needs we have neglected for too long."--[Official Report, 21 November 1974; Vol. 881, c. 1555.]
I do not want to be in this House at another historic moment--when that benefit, which was so proudly introduced, is removed by this Labour Government. I do not think that that was what was meant when it was said that this was the first step in a new deal for disabled people--not at all.
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