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Referendums Bill
As amended in the Standing Committee, considered.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
We have spent the morning dealing with dodgy MOT certificates. We now deal with a dodgy insurance policy, as proposed by the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Robathan). On Second Reading and throughout Committee, he described the Bill as an insurance policy. I have sought to amend the Bill extensively to turn it from a dodgy insurance policy into one that will work, but the hon. Gentleman does not want to take any advice on the matter.
Mr. Andrew Robathan (Blaby):
As regards advice, has the hon. Gentleman taken any advice from the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), or from anyone in the Whips Office, on the new clause that he has tabled?
Mr. Miller:
I will be frank. I tabled a considerable number of the amendments after my own research, and some were tabled after discussions with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary. I make no bones about it. I seek to improve what was perhaps intended to be helpful legislation. It seems that the hon. Gentleman was not open to advice because the Under-Secretary has, I understand, offered to embrace the spirit of the Bill within the electoral commission that is proposed by the Government. That was described on Second Reading at great length.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset):
In that case, will the hon. Gentleman call on the Government to guarantee what we have repeatedly asked for: no referendum will be held until rules similar to those proposed are in place?
Mr. Miller:
I do not need to call on the Government to make such commitments. I know my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary extremely well. I trust him absolutely. I know the Home Secretary extremely well and I trust him as well. I also trust the Government. Clearly, the weakness of the hon. Gentleman's position is that he does not trust anyone. That is indicative of the problems that face the Tory party: Conservative Members do not trust even each other.
Mr. Letwin:
Of course I understand that the hon. Gentleman trusts his own Front Benchers. However, it would be a little difficult for him to trust them if they
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
Order. We are discussing new clause 3. Let us concern ourselves with that.
Mr. Miller:
I should love to answer the point made by the hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin), but--on your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker--I shall not.
Mr. Miller:
Yes, I certainly can.
The substance of the new clause deals with the date of commencement. The problem is that the hon. Member for Blaby does not seem to trust anyone, but wants his so-called insurance policy to be effected immediately. I am trying to be helpful to him.
New clause 3 would make alternative provision for the implicit commencement date of the Bill's provisions. I believe--although there are greater experts on the matter than I am--that, unless an alternative date is provided, a Bill's provisions will commence automatically on Royal Assent. New clause 3 would simply provide for the Bill to come into force on a date determined by the Secretary of State.
Mr. Miller:
Does the hon. Gentleman want to say something? I am not quite sure what the word "never" means. Never say never is my advice to him--or he might stay in opposition for ever.
Mr. Letwin:
I am, of course, trying to say that the intent of new clause 3--it would be better if the hon. Gentleman admitted it--is to give the Secretary of State power never to implement the Bill's provisions.
Mr. Miller:
Again, the hon. Gentleman shows no faith in anyone.
Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon):
I do not know whether my hon. Friend is aware of the case of R v. Secretary of State for the Home Department ex parte Fire Brigades Union and others, but it deals with a point of construction applying to his amendment. I hope to be able--if I catch your eye, Mr. Deputy Speaker--to expand on that issue later in the debate.
Mr. Miller:
I am not sure whether to address my hon. Friend as learned, as he has substantially more legal qualifications than I do. Nevertheless, I shall avoid responding to his point, but leave him to make it later in the debate.
New clause 3 will enable the Secretary of State to determine the date on which the provisions come into force, presumably giving him the option of following the advice and guidance sought by the hon. Member for Blaby. If there were to be a referendum before establishment of the promised electoral commission, the Secretary of State could trigger the Bill's provisions
--which would, quite rightly, provide at least some mechanism to deal with the hon. Gentleman's concerns about the conduct of the referendum.
Mr. Robathan:
Has the hon. Gentleman just admitted the possibility that there could be a referendum before the measures are in place? If he did, he has contradicted everything that he said in Committee.
Mr. Miller:
I did not say that. I am working on the basis that I have as little knowledge of what happens in Cabinet as the hon. Gentleman does.
Mr. Miller:
I have considerably more trust in my right hon. Friends than the hon. Gentleman obviously does. If the Cabinet decided tomorrow that there should be a referendum, the new clause would give them a vehicle to provide the types of protection that the hon. Gentleman is seeking.
Mr. Robathan:
Last night, about 65 of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues voted against the Government. Do they have a similar trust in the Cabinet?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We are debating a new clause. Those matters should not be dealt with in this debate.
Mr. Miller:
Last night, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) said that he accepted 98 per cent. of the Bill that was before us. If the hon. Member for Blaby would trust the Government and my hon. Friend the Minister 98 per cent., we would not be having this rather odd exchange. As I said, the Government have the opportunity to put in place the protection that the hon. Gentleman seeks should the Cabinet decide on a referendum on any subject between now and the enactment of the Bill.
Mr. John Butterfill (Bournemouth, West):
The hon. Gentleman has already admitted that, without the new clause, the Bill will come into effect on Royal Assent, so the new clause would simply delay its implementation. Can he explain why we need a delay?
Mr. Miller:
That is a perfectly sensible point and it is my duty to explain it to the House. Due to the filibustering of the Opposition, I have not had the chance to do so. The Bill gives the Secretary of State the power to trigger the Bill if, hypothetically, the Government decided on a referendum on the abolition of Blaby or anything else. That is the insurance policy that the hon. Gentleman requires. If there is no referendum between now and the enactment of the Bill, without the new clause, we shall have set up a body that is superfluous to requirements at public cost, wasting taxpayer's money. The new clause would enable the hon. Member for Blaby to have his insurance policy without the potential waste of public money that would result from his having purchased that insurance policy earlier than necessary.
Mr. Robathan:
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for being so generous with his time, although he would
Mr. Miller:
As a humble Back Bencher, I regret that that is not within my gift. During the debates on the several amendments that I have tabled, I want to ensure that a rather weak insurance policy is improved so that we do not end up with the dodgy-MOT-certificate syndrome that we discussed this morning.
Dr. Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test):
I have listened carefully to my hon. Friend's reasons for the new clause. Is he assuming that the Bill applies only to national referendums and not to local and regional ones, which may well take place at a time that is difficult to specify and according to the wishes of the Secretary of State or is he assuming that those flaws in the Bill will have been ironed out before Third Reading?
'.--This Act shall come into force on such day as the Secretary of State may by order appoint.'.--[Mr. Miller.]
1.37 pm
1.45 pm
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