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Mr. Miller: As I understand it, the Bill refers only to referendums that are triggered by an action of a Secretary of State. Whether that could cover local or regional referendums is a matter for discussion. Some of my hon. Friends from the north-east have said that they would like an early referendum on the devolution of powers to that region. Such a referendum would require the Government to create the reference framework. I do not know whether the same applies to referendums at county council or district council level, although I am sure that it could be the case in certain circumstances. My one-line new clause would remove the possibility of an absurd amount of public money being wasted on the creation of a body that, even if Conservative Members have only a small amount of faith in the Government--surely they have at least some--
Mr. Miller: If that is the official position of the Conservatives, it reflects badly on them.
Mr. Butterfill: Surely the hon. Gentleman accepts that everything that has happened today has been an organised filibuster to prevent the Bill from reaching the statute book. The Minister could give an undertaking to introduce Government legislation if he wanted. Of course we distrust the Government.
Mr. Miller: I find that insulting. Throughout my time in the House, I have worked very hard with hon. Members from both sides on issues relating to road safety. My new clause, which we spent a substantial amount of time discussing today, was about issues relating to the death of 3,000 people a year. The hon. Gentleman should not regard that as filibustering. His constituents would not agree. It is probably substantially more important than this Bill.
As I was trying to say before I was interrupted several times by Conservative Members, this is a simple new clause aimed at minimising the waste of public money that would ensue from all the provisions in the Bill coming into force on Royal Assent. I would prefer it if
the Conservatives had a little faith in the Government and accepted the spirit in which my hon. Friend the Minister made his representations on Second Reading. I have been assured that there will be an electoral commission draft Bill, which will be subject to widespread public consultation. It is surely right that a Bill on issues that are so fundamental to our constitution should be subject to public consultation. I am sure that the hon. Member for Blaby accepts that. Why waste time and resources on the body specified in the Bill? If the hon. Gentleman wants an insurance policy, the new clause would get him more sympathy from Labour Members without wasting a lot of public money.
Mr. Robathan:
We have 36 minutes left today, so I suspect that we shall not finish all the business on this Bill or on the Fur Farming (Prohibition) Bill, which I regret, because I support that Bill.
Mr. Miller:
Will the hon. Gentleman therefore condemn the actions of his colleagues last week in talking out that Bill?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not go into that.
Mr. Robathan:
I would not dream of doing so. However, there is time available next week, when we have a recess starting on Thursday--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman must not mention those matters. He must refer to the new clause.
Mr. Robathan:
I bow to your ruling, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The new clause is a small clause, and the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller) asked us to put more faith in the Government and to have an insurance policy. I do not particularly object to the clause, and I would be prepared to accept it. We agree that we want a referendums commission.
The hon. Gentleman and the Minister sat through the Committee. I believe that the Minister thinks that this is a good idea. He may not think that every aspect of the Bill is a good idea, but I think that he accepts that it would be good to have a referendums commission so as to have the rules for referendums brought in before the next referendum--be it, as in the new clause, at the discretion of the Home Secretary, or be it at the enactment of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston was voluble about the new clause, as he has been throughout the day. We are asked to put faith in the Government, but the amendment paper shows that we should not have faith in them. Why has the new clause been tabled? It is not normal for a specific derogation to the Home Secretary to be made at this stage of a Bill. It is normal to have that enacted at Royal Assent. I do not object to the clause, but I want to know why it has been tabled. Why have the Government assisted in producing this clause and others, as we have heard, and why are they opposed to the Bill?
The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston talked about a waste of public money and resources. However, he is aware that negligible amounts of public money would be spent under the Bill because there would be no
need for a referendums commission if no referendum were called. I look forward to seeing the Government's proposals to give discretion to the Home Secretary to determine when the measures are brought into law.
I would have more faith in the Government if they would give us the guarantee for which Members on both sides have asked, as have many outside the House.
Mr. Letwin:
Does my hon. Friend agree that we could accept entirely the new clause and the refusal of the Government to accept the Bill as a whole if we had such a guarantee? Does he further agree that proposing the new clause in the absence of that guarantee provides nothing like an insurance policy? If the Government are determined not to promise that they will have no referendum before the new commission is enacted, they will show no sign of actually implementing the legislation in advance of a referendum. Therefore, we have an insurance policy that the Government could negate.
Mr. Robathan:
My hon. Friend is right. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston talked about improving the insurance policy but, as I have said all along, I will withdraw the money that I wish to put in that insurance policy if we have the Government's insurance policy on the table. The clause will not improve the insurance policy and is designed to damage it.
I remind the hon. Gentleman of the famous words of the right hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr. Mandelson) on exactly this subject when he was asked whether the Government were obliged to accept the Neill recommendations. The right hon. Gentleman was then a Cabinet Minister; this was before his sad demise. I do not hear Labour Members cheering. The right hon. Gentleman said:
The new clause--along with various others--seems foolish in its introduction, its inception and its motivation. I do not know whether the hon. Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble) intends to speak, but the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore), who has been drafted in, may waffle on about the new clause. I confidently expect them to be talking on it at 2.30, but they should know that those who act as toadies of the Whips only gain the contempt and derision of the Whips, and of their constituents, and they irritate and bore the House. I notice that the hon. Member for Hendon is laughing. I am delighted to say that his constituents will have a good opportunity, at the next general election, to reject him.
Mr. Letwin:
Does my hon. Friend agree that there are many circumstances under which the tabling of such a new clause and the filibustering techniques that are being used would be perfectly legitimate but that what he and I object to so strenuously in this case is the fact that we are dealing with the fundamentals of our democracy? The tabling of a new clause that is designed to do nothing
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I remind hon. Members that interventions should be brief.
Mr. Robathan:
I agree with my hon. Friend, but it is more important to note that hon. Members of all parties agree with him. The hon. Member for Newport, West (Mr. Flynn) is a sponsor of the Bill and agrees with me, with Liberal Members, with the independent hon. Member for Tatton (Mr. Bell) and with people outside the House that the new clause was tabled purely to undermine the Bill and to undermine any better democracy in this country.
Mr. Paul Flynn (Newport, West):
I have not been physically present in the Chamber for most of today, but I have heard all the speeches by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller). He spoke on the Road Traffic (Vehicle Testing) Bill, which I accept is very serious. There are 16 Bills before us today, and I am sure that my hon. Friend has expert knowledge of them all and would like to speak about them all with equal brevity but, sadly, although the Bill is splendid and the new clause is entirely acceptable and worth while, we are witnessing not only the assassination of a number of Bills by tactics that many of us might consider questionable--that happened last week, as it does on many Fridays--but the degradation of the rights and powers of Back Benchers.
"We don't have to but we need to be mindful of the analysis that he is offering."
I should like the Government to say rather more firmly that they will accept the recommendations and introduce a Bill to be enacted before a referendum, with the discretion of the Home Secretary involved, as in the new clause.
2 pm
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