THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES
OFFICIAL REPORT
IN THE SECOND SESSION OF THE FIFTY-SECOND PARLIAMENT OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND
[WHICH OPENED 7 MAY 1997]
FORTY-EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF
HER MAJESTY QUEEN ELIZABETH II
SIXTH SERIES
VOLUME 332
TENTH VOLUME OF SESSION 1998-99
House of Commons
Monday 24 May 1999
The House met at half-past Two o'clock
PRAYERS
[Madam Speaker in the Chair]
Oral Answers to Questions
SOCIAL SECURITY
The Secretary of State was asked--
Benefits Agency Staff
1. Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): How many staff are employed in Benefits Agency offices (a) in Inverclyde and (b) in Scotland as a whole; and what was the equivalent figure in (i) 1990, (ii) 1993 and (iii) 1996. [83991]
The Secretary of State for Social Security (Mr. Alistair Darling): At 30 April 1999, the number of BA staff employed in Inverclyde was 242. The number in Scotland was 6,966.
I am unable to provide further information in the form that my hon. Friend has requested due to district reorganisations. Unfortunately, the figures for Scotland are not available for 1993. Before 1990, there was no Benefits Agency.
Dr. Godman:
Those recent figures sound encouraging enough. Jack Martin and his team of officials have my respect, especially the local customer relations officers, Liz McArthur and Margaret Mitchell, but I have received representations concerning the number of doctors and support staff who carry out medical examinations to determine the award of incapacity and other benefits. Is it true that their number is still too low for the number of examinations that they have to carry out? I hope that my right hon. Friend will dismiss the idea that the Sema Group, which carries out that work for the Benefits Agency, is screwing down the number employed to maximise profits. That would be detrimental to our constituents, who have to wait far too long as it is for such medical examinations.
Mr. Darling:
We keep the number of medical staff throughout the country under review. I am not aware of there being a particular problem in Greenock or in the surrounding area, but I will happily look into it for my hon. Friend.
My hon. Friend may be interested to know that we are recruiting 64 members of staff as part of the new single gateway to the benefits system. One of its pilot projects is operating on the Clyde coast, so he will know about it. I thank him for his compliments to the staff; I know that he has written to them and has been extremely supportive of everything they do. They appreciate that.
2. Dr. Stephen Ladyman (South Thanet):
What progress has been made in improving co-ordination between the Benefits Agency and local authorities in combating fraud. [83992]
The Minister of State, Department of Social Security (Mr. Stephen Timms):
There is good progress on a range of fronts. We have earmarked funding in each Benefits Agency area to help to build stronger links with local authorities. Last month, the Benefits Agency and local
Dr. Ladyman:
I thank my hon. Friend for that answer. Is he aware that Thanet district council has recently been commended by the benefit fraud inspectorate for its work to prevent and to detect fraud? That accolade was earned after much hard work and as a result of being able to put resources into fraud detection and prevention, which includes co-operation with the Benefits Agency. If the system of weekly benefit savings is to be replaced, will he assure me that the new system will continue to provide councils such as Thanet with the resources that it needs to co-operate with the Benefits Agency and to invest in such fraud detection and prevention?
Mr. Timms:
I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. I commend the achievements of Thanet district council in tackling fraud. Indeed, I commend the efforts of my hon. Friend, who was the chair of finance at that local authority when the lamentable record of the Conservative administration at Thanet was being turned round.
A commendation from the benefit fraud inspectorate is based on careful and thorough analysis; it is not lightly given. Last week, I visited the BFI headquarters and was able to see for myself the thoroughness and detailed preparation that go into its important work in all the local authorities that are inspected.
As in the case of Thanet, the WBS--weekly benefit savings--system has encouraged local authorities to allocate adequate resources to the detection of fraud. That is to be welcomed. We will continue to use WBS with local authorities for some time yet, but we also need to encourage work on prevention; WBS focuses on detection. That is the central purpose of the verification framework, and we are funding local authorities £100 million to implement it.
Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough):
One of the best ways in which to combat fraud would be to automate the payment of benefits, but that has been the subject of a long-standing dispute between the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Social Security. Will the Minister honestly say what has happened to the ICL contract? We gain lots of information from unattributable briefings to the press. Will he come openly to the House and explain what is going on?
Mr. Timms:
There have been a number of delays with the Horizon project and against that background, the Government commissioned a substantial review of the project, which began last year. Everyone involved--ICL, Post Office Counters Ltd, as well as the Department of Social Security--has been looking again at the project to find a way in which everyone can make a commitment to it. I understand that we can expect an announcement about it from the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry later today.
3. Helen Jones (Warrington, North):
What estimate he has made of the number of people in Warrington, North who will benefit from the minimum pension guarantee. [83993]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Angela Eagle):
We estimate that approximately 2,000 pensioners will benefit from the minimum income guarantee in Warrington, North. The increases in income support rates for pensioners will mean that, this year, in real terms, a single pensioner could be approximately £160 better off.
Helen Jones:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that reply. Will she tell the House whether it is the Government's intention that, if possible, the minimum pension guarantee will be uprated in line with average earnings? If so, does it not highlight the contrast between the Government's policy of protecting the poorest pensioners, and the Opposition's policy of abolishing that minimum income guarantee?
Angela Eagle:
My hon. Friend is right to point out that the Government's priority is to protect the most vulnerable pensioners, which is why we have been focusing money on them in the way that I have just described. She was also correct to have noticed that the Chancellor announced that we intend, next year, to uprate the minimum income guarantee in line with earnings.
Mr. Julian Brazier (Canterbury):
Will the Minister confirm that, under those arrangements, according to which the minimum income guarantee is pegged to earnings, whereas the basic pension is pegged to prices, the proportion of people in Warrington, North and across the United Kingdom who are dependent on means-tested benefits will rise indefinitely year on year?
Angela Eagle:
The hon. Gentleman talks about means testing, but omits to mention that, in 1979--when the Tories took control of Government--16 per cent. of all benefits were means-tested whereas, in May 1997, when they were finally driven from office, that figure had risen to 34 per cent. Therefore, we need absolutely no lessons from Conservative Members about means testing. The hon. Gentleman should remember that the Government's priority is to ensure that we get help now to those who need it now. The minimum income guarantee will focus real extra resources on those who need them most.
Mr. Steve Webb (Northavon):
May I transport the Minister to Warrington, North, in the year 2064--which is the year in which constituents of the hon. Member for Warrington, North (Helen Jones) who are born this year will reach state pension age? Will the Minister confirm that, under current policy, the combined value of the full basic state pension and the full state second pension for those people will be below the value of the proposed minimum income guarantee? Does she accept that that proves that the Government's policy is unsustainable?
Angela Eagle:
The hon. Gentleman should stop transporting in time, and start examining the very important changes that we are making to pension
Mr. Bob Blizzard (Waveney):
May I welcome the proposal in the pensions Green Paper to examine ways of helping pensioners in Warrington, North and elsewhere whose small second pension takes them just above income support levels and therefore just beyond eligibility for the minimum income guarantee? Many of those pensioners feel that, despite their modest savings, they are little or no better off than those who are on income support and qualify for other benefits. Will my hon. Friend say when the Government might make such proposals?
Angela Eagle:
My hon. Friend is exactly right to say that, paradoxically, those who have small occupational pensions and find themselves just above income support levels often end up worse off because they do not receive passported benefits. It is a very difficult issue of public policy, which we are examining. As he will know, we have announced a review of the capital limit, and shall make an announcement on that when we are able to do so.
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