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The Children Act 1989 applies to all children. Section 17 introduced the vital concept of the entitlement of children in need. Children with disabilities, from families who have difficulty in looking after them, who have been abused or who are at grotesque risk of abuse are entitled to services under that section, which also applies to families in the most demeaning circumstances.
We have heard descriptions of poverty and we should recognise the fact that all families living on social security and on housing benefit are living in poverty. The legacy of the previous Government was that a third of all children in this country were living in poverty. Families who have not been able to manage their incredibly limited money, and who, by misfortune, have run out, come cap in hand to social services departments, typically on a Friday afternoon, to beg a little bit of food to see them over the weekend, and that food is provided because otherwise the children would be in care. The most paltry request that I have made is that asylum-seeking families should be included under section 17 of the Children Act 1989.
Ministers have not only listened to our arguments but have acted on them. That reflects manifold credit on them. They have made changes, and I welcome my right hon. Friend's support for amendment No. 3. I have great difficulties with new clause 6, but I understand that there has been some movement in providing slightly more in cash and less in vouchers. The speeding up of the system is very welcome, as is the commitment to the sympathetic dispersal of people around the country, which should help us to avoid some of the problems that have occurred in places such as Dover. If managed sympathetically, it should help people to establish themselves in communities where their language is known and their culture recognised.
I recognise my right hon. Friend's determination to deal with the huge number of claims that apparently have little merit and to apply the system with humanity, responsibility, efficiency and probity. I have observed the Government's approach to the issue. I absolutely deplore the decision not to give social security to families with children, which is a modest request. Children do not come here of their own volition and I cannot see any justification for not giving their families the full range of benefits. I am terribly sorry that the Government intend to maintain their exception to the United Nations convention on children's rights on immigration and asylum matters.
The Children Act 1989 provides the opportunity to give proper support to children, and its profound significance should be properly recognised. If my right hon. Friend can assure me that new clause 6 will not prevent asylum-seeking families with children from getting the same range of support from social services departments under section 17 as all other families, so that they will not feel the need to beg on the streets or put their children at risk, I am prepared to trust the Government's commitment and Ministers' integrity and responsibility and vote with the Government.
That one vote does not mean very much, but my right hon. Friend should recognise the huge responsibility on his shoulders to produce an improved system that humanely and efficiently meets people's needs, enabling children of asylum seekers to be treated on the same basis
as children from this country. If that happens, and the Children Act 1989 remains unamended, I am prepared give the Government my trust.
Dr. Godman:
First, I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and to other hon. Members, for my absence from this debate for about 40 minutes. I had a meeting with the Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy). I explained that to the Chairman of Ways and Means, who was the previous occupant of the Chair.
I was only too willing to endorse amendment No. 1, for several reasons. I have always been opposed to voucher systems. I remember the necessitous clothing vouchers that we had in Strathclyde, which stigmatised children among their schoolmates, and the asylum seekers' vouchers will do the same. Can my right hon. Friend give me an assurance that his voucher system is immune from the pernicious activities of loan sharks? I do not know what the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie (Mr. Worthington) is, but I have had experience in my constituency of loan sharks holding many giro books belonging to social security claimants. I hope that we shall not see something similar with the voucher system. The voucher system is rotten. Vouchers are cumbersome and bureaucratic and, as many of my hon. Friends have said, they stigmatise those who hold them. We are dealing with children here and we must treat them compassionately and sensitively.
I offer my compliments to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary for his genuine willingness to listen to the legitimate concerns raised by my hon. Friends, many of whom have much more experience than I do of asylum seekers. Those males in Scotland who have had their applications rejected--I think that they are called persons awaiting deportation--invariably finish up in the prison in my constituency.
But here we are talking about support for children, and the voucher system is not right. The Asylum Support Directorate, as my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie said, will be cumbersome and bureaucratic.
I am also totally opposed to putting families on 70 per cent. of income support. Many of my constituents--too many--are on income support and they are on the breadline now, so those who receive 70 per cent. of income support will be in a much worse position.
The effect of the Home Secretary's measure will be exacerbated by what he seeks to do to the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. I know that my right hon. Friend will have something to say about emergency procedures, but no one knows better than my hon. Friend the Member for Clydebank and Milngavie just how important section 12 of that Act is for children caught up in emergencies when the social security system cannot help them. It is wrong for the House to change that Act.
I, along with my hon. Friend, am proud that it was our old and dear friends, the late Willie Ross and the late George Willis, who put that Act through the House all those years ago, because it has helped many families. We should not deny to the children of refugees the assistance given to Scottish children in need by that wonderful Act.
I also happen to believe that, by this measure, the Home Secretary and his officials bring us into a grey area between the competence of this place vis-a-vis reserved
powers and the devolved powers of the Scottish Parliament with regard to the protection of children. If I were a Member of the Scottish Parliament--I speak as the husband of an MSP--I would be concerned about this measure.
The Social Work (Scotland) Act is exclusive to Scotland. Its aim is to help people in need, especially families. If I were an MSP I would want to take the matter to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council because, with respect, that very fine fellow, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary--his remit runs throughout the United Kingdom--is coming into Scotland and diminishing that important Act which has helped many children in my constituency and, I have no doubt, in my hon. Friend's constituency and elsewhere in Scotland. I have been given some indication by that fine fellow, my right hon. Friend, that he may have something to say about the 1968 Act as it is affected by the Bill.
However, I have said that I will be brief and I shall try to hold to that promise. I am completely opposed to a voucher system. It is disgraceful that we should say that families will receive 70 per cent. of income support. In terms of helping children, the diminution of the value of section 12 of the 1968 Act is a major mistake and I hope that it can be changed. It will cause anger in Scotland.
Mr. Straw:
This has been an important and wide-ranging debate, which has not only covered new clause 6, which clarifies the duties under the Children Act 1989 and ensures that they are effectively and seamlessly transferred to the Asylum Support Directorate in respect of children of asylum seekers, but has ranged much more widely on account of amendment No. 1, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), to include the whole principle of cash versus vouchers.
In the course of the debate I have been asked many questions. I apologise if I am unable to answer all of them, but I am ready to accept interventions, and I shall ensure that answers are given in writing.
As it turned out, the heart of the debate concerned the issue of cash versus vouchers for families. To pick up the easiest questions, my hon. Friend the Member for Greenock and Inverclyde (Dr. Godman), asked whether the vouchers would be immune from loan sharks. I was expecting him then to buttress his argument in favour of the social security cash system against--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman is seeking to answer many questions from his own Back Benchers, but he must address the Chair.
Mr. Straw:
I now turn out to be a recidivist, as I committed the same offence last night. I shall accept that as a final warning and hope to amend my ways.
I was rather expecting my hon. Friend to come up with an argument in support of his that cash was better than vouchers. But--if I may tease him with this--his point
supports our argument rather than his. His point was that as, at the moment, loan sharks ask for social security benefit books--an entirely cash-based system--as security against a loan, what would happen with vouchers? The imagination of loan sharks knows few bounds, but precisely because vouchers will not be freely negotiable--they will be redeemable only by those who properly receive them--the opportunity for them to be used as security for loan sharks should be greatly diminished.
My hon. Friend also asked about section 12 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968. As I explained to him in a note, we intend to move amendments in the other place, consistent with those in new clause 6 in respect of the Children Act for England and Wales, to ensure that similar responsibilities are seamlessly transferred.
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