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10.15 pm
We also have the problem of the gang masters, who use the lump system that was used on building sites in the past. It is now used on the land. The gang master sells a gang of illegal immigrants or asylum seekers--people from Poland and Lithuania seem to have been particularly involved in this exercise--and the farmer asks no questions and gets cheap labour, which undercuts the wages of agricultural workers in the area. Section 8 at least enables us to get at the gang master. We need to be able to tackle unscrupulous employers.
We did oppose section 8 in opposition, because we seriously feared that it would cause discrimination. That is a problem, but we need to be able to deal with exploitative employers. We say that at present section 8 is not operating properly. We refer an allegation to the prosecuting authorities after we have served an offending employer with a warning. That is because the measures were primarily designed to combat widespread abuse, not to penalise small employers who have made a simple mistake.
We do not intend to penalise small employers who have made a mistake and do not intend to facilitate on a large scale. To date, 40 warnings have been issued, but there has been only one prosecution, which was very recent. After long and hard thought, we took a decision to implement the legislation. The reason that we have not prosecuted more is that we were considering the issue carefully. We were extremely concerned about the implications of section 8. We finally decided that we needed to take action because the extent of the abuse was so considerable.
The recent prosecution involved the illegal employment of a number of people in the horticultural industry. Given the opportunity of mounting a defence against
prosecution under section 8, the employer was unable to do so. The company pleaded guilty and was fined a total of £4,500 and ordered to pay costs.
Given the vast profits involved in employing cheap, exploitable, illegal labour, we must tackle the abuse. We are keen to bring more cases to court and to send a strong message to racketeers, who often employ quite large numbers of illegal immigrants, and to those who facilitate that. That is not only with a view to maintaining firm control of immigration, but in the interests of vulnerable employees, many of whom are badly exploited. Those who seek to remove section 8 would leave illegal immigrants to be exploited by unscrupulous employers in order to cut wages.
On amendments Nos. 150 and 157, clause 15 is designed to emphasise to employers their duty to avoid racial discrimination in their recruiting practices when they seek to secure the statutory defence under section 8. We will make it part of our statutory code to apply initial checks without discrimination, and we will enforce that.
The obligation is clear. I shall read from the current code, which is not statutory, but forms the basis on which we will consult. It states:
Our code has the serious purpose of tackling discrimination where it occurs. It occurs in some employment practices. We accept that some employers might seek to use section 8 as an excuse for racially discriminatory purposes. We want to make it clear to all employers that they should not even begin to contemplate using the excuse of the statutory defence under section 8 to discriminate. We will not tolerate racism from employers.
That is why we need clause 15 and reject the amendment, which would remove the statutory code. We want to deal with these issues firmly. Our code will give a clear and simple message to employers who may be discriminating unintentionally, or who may attempt to discriminate. They will be unable to do so because the legislation will be enforced. Those who discriminate and use section 8 as an excuse to do so will know that the code will be used against them in the courts. It therefore provides the extra deterrent against discrimination that we need.
As I have said throughout the debate, there are two problems that we need to tackle: first, the mischief of unscrupulous employers exploiting illegal labour to drive down wages; and, secondly, the mischief of racist discrimination being excused by section 8. We will tolerate neither. Section 8 will be used to tackle gang masters and racketeers, and those who import illegal labour. It will be used to target serious criminals without warning in a much more concerted and focused way.
We will also use the new statutory code to tackle racism. The Liberal Democrat amendment would remove our ability to do that. The hon. Member for Hallam has been honest and open about how the Liberal Democrats have come to their conclusion, and I understand the logic of their argument. Indeed, I have a degree of sympathy
with it. However, it leaves dangerously exposed many vulnerable people, who are either overstayers or illegal immigrants, and others, who may then face exploitation. Moreover, it does nothing about the fact that illegal working drives down wages and allows some unscrupulous employers to drive down the wages of people who might otherwise be able to work lawfully.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Ms King) mentioned that Bangladeshis in her community face fivefold discrimination. We need to tackle discrimination and enforce the Race Relations Act 1976. We also need to enforce the statutory code that we are providing in the Bill. I remind my hon. Friend that her constituents also face the problem of exploitation in sweatshops. We need to deal with that, too. She said that the Government have an excellent record on race relations and race equality. We want to enhance that record. We have already said that we are examining the race equality legislation and we seek to move it firmly forward. What we cannot do, however, is allow the exploitation of vulnerable workers by the removal of section 8.
My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and the hon. Member for Worthing, West (Mr. Bottomley) asked whether we were still listening. My hon. Friend asked whether there was another way to skin a cat. We are still listening and if there are ways to deal with exploitative employers and to reduce discrimination, we want to hear them. This matter is still to be discussed in another place and we are more than willing to talk to the Commission for Racial Equality. I met Bob Perkiss of the CRE and discussed those matters at length. It is aware of our concerns, although it still has its views, as the Liberal Democrats and others have theirs. However, it understands that these are real issues, which the Government must address.
Mr. Peter Bottomley:
Can the Minister answer directly the question that was put to him, which was: was the CRE consulted about section 8? Was it consulted about clause 15, which was previously clause 13, and has it put directly to the Minister, as it has to Back-Bench Members, its concerns about the present position? It has written to Members of Parliament saying that it is against it.
Mr. O'Brien:
Yes. When we were considering this matter I met Bob Perkiss of the Commission for Racial Equality, who was representing Sir Herman Ouseley, and we discussed at length our concerns about the issue. Strong representations were made to me and it was clear that there were some arguments. Like the Liberal Democrats, the CRE took the view that the balance of the argument was in favour of removing section 8. Although it accepted that there was an issue of exploitative employers, it wanted to have section 8 removed. We have reached a different judgment. We do not think that we can leave the exploitative employers to continue to exploit vulnerable people, which would be the effect of removing the provision.
We have consulted widely. No organisation has yet come back to us to show us how we can effectively deal with both the mischiefs that we seek to tackle with the provision. We were faced with a dilemma. We have resolved it by strengthening the anti-racist provisions with
a statutory code, which we will enforce. We have had to face up to the reality that section 8 is being used to discriminate and we have had to find a way of tackling that. We believe that the statutory code will achieve that.
The previous Government had a non-statutory code and, therefore, we needed to send a much tougher and stronger message. There is no panacea here, and this dilemma is difficult for all of us, but the hard realities have had to be faced. We have taken the view that the balance of the argument comes down in favour of retaining section 8, but improving the strength of the code by making it statutory, and making a firm commitment that the Government will take action if we find that employers are discriminating.
Mr. Allan:
We do not want to encourage illegal working or the exploitation of workers in such a situation. We do not take that view; nor do those who share our position--the Commission for Racial Equality, the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux, the Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry. I hope that the Minister does not characterise all of us as wishing to encourage illegal working. We are talking about the best way to tackle that without the unnecessary consequence, and it is important that we get that straight.
I was grateful to the right hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Miss Widdecombe) for intervening to point out the discrepancy--or the movement--in the Government's position. We moved on to talk about skinning cats, which took me back to a comment made yesterday by the hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott). She characterised the staff of the Immigration and Nationality Directorate as nice people who probably love animals and go to church. I wondered whether she was recommending the right hon. Lady for a job in the IND; she seems to be eminently qualified.
"The best way to ensure that you do not discriminate is to treat all applicants in the same way at each stage of the recruitment process. You may ask for a document at any stage--but if you ask for a document from one applicant make sure you ask for a document from all applicants being considered at that stage."
That is a clear way in which employers can make sure that they do not discriminate.
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