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Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome): What was the position of the then official Opposition on the measure when it was introduced?
Mr. Timms: The measure was opposed in 1986, 14 years ago. We are now considering how to deal with the enormous difficulties that we have picked up as a result of those changes not being publicised at the time they should have been. As the then Minister said, there should have been a major publicity campaign at the time to make people aware of them. That was not done, and it led to the problems that we now face.
I have said that anyone who can show that they have been mis-advised and, as a consequence, have taken action to their own financial detriment, will be entitled to compensation. A large number of people may be affected and we are considering carefully how best to resolve the matter. The ombudsman is also considering a sample of cases. We will make an announcement in due course, in good time for April next year when the change is due to take effect.
Mr. Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove):
The Minister said that, where it could be shown that someone had taken action, he would be entitled to compensation. My hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) pointed out that it is people who have not taken action who have been lulled into a false sense of security. Can the Minister give some assurance that those people, the real victims, will be compensated?
Mr. Timms:
If, for example, people have received advice by telephone, we shall take that into account. If what the hon. Gentleman is putting to me is that people may have received advice--for example, over the telephone--on the basis of which they decided not to do something that they would otherwise have done, then they, too, will have a case for compensation. However, this is an exceedingly complex and large issue which requires careful consideration by the Government. That consideration is currently being given and we shall make an announcement in due course.
Mr. Derek Twigg:
I am reassured by what my hon. Friend says. I, like other hon. Members, have received letters from constituents on the subject. It is obviously a serious issue. However, are not the Government dealing with the matter in a more responsible way than the Liberal Democrats? When I asked how they would pay for a 10-year delay, they said that it was up to the Government to sort that out. But this is the same party that wants to put 1p on income tax to fund its education priorities. That seems like double standards to me.
Mr. Timms:
My hon. Friend is being kind. I do not know about double standards--I would say treble or quadruple standards.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Social Security (Angela Eagle):
Quintuple standards.
My hon. Friend the Member for Halton (Mr. Twigg) is right to say that the Liberal Democrats' proposals are entirely free of any sense of responsibility.
Mr. Michael Jabez Foster:
In view of the Liberal Democrats' interest today in the fact that the matter has not been mentioned since 1986, does my hon. Friend know whether the Liberal Democrats have mentioned it since 1986?
Mr. Timms:
No, my impression is that they have not mentioned it until these last few months. My hon. Friend makes a telling point.
Mr. Pickles:
The hon. Gentleman has been his customary courteous self today. One has become accustomed in debates such as this for Ministers to read their brief, not make important announcements. Today, however, the Minister has made an important announcement about telephone claims. How much proof will be required? Will an applicant's word that he telephoned in 1987 or 1988 be sufficient, or will a telephone bill have to be produced?
Mr. Timms:
I advise the hon. Gentleman to be patient. As I have said, we shall make a fuller announcement on these matters in due course and as soon as we can.
Mr. Rendel:
The hon. Gentleman seemed to make a double announcement, one of which was referred to by the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles), concerning the proof that would be needed that a telephone call had been made. That is an interesting concept. I imagine that almost everyone involved could say that they had made a telephone call and it would be difficult to prove otherwise. But what happens if people say that they did not take any action? Most people, if they were reassured, will not have taken any action. Will they all receive compensation?
Mr. Timms:
My advice to the hon. Gentleman is the same as to the hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar--to wait for the announcement that we will make as soon as we are in a position to do so. The hon. Gentleman's point may well provide him with an explanation of why it is necessary to take some time over the details of the matter to ensure, as we will, that we get it right.
Mr. Eric Pickles (Brentwood and Ongar):
It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate. I commiserate with the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Rendel) on the mistake in the drafting of the motion. He blamed the Whips Office, but if any trade union operates in this building it is that of the Whips. I shall watch for the number of times that the hon. Gentleman is slipped over the next few months.
It is also a great pleasure to follow the Minister. He spoke fluently and, in commemoration of the day and in honour of the Liberal Democrats, he is wearing a yellow tie. I also commend him on his bravery. His announcement concerning telephone calls is important. For him to say that, if people did nothing, they may well have a claim is an important announcement.
Mr. Derek Twigg:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Not many hon. Members, save the Chancellor, have the opportunity to commit the Government to a potential £5 billion of expenditure. I congratulate the Minister on doing so. That shows real courage. I hope that he has a peaceful weekend in consequence, particularly as the hon. Member for Halton (Mr. Twigg), who is seeking to intervene, criticised the Liberal Democrats for suggesting such a thing. I trust that he will now apologise to the hon. Member for Newbury.
Mr. Twigg:
When will the hon. Gentleman apologise for the current debacle? Will he apologise now on behalf of the Conservative party when it was in government?
Mr. Pickles:
I have apologised from the Dispatch Box on a couple of occasions. Hon. Members should accept responsibility for what happens. The fact that the publicity campaign did not take place is a disgrace. I do not think for one moment that Ministers in the Department of Social Security prevented that from happening; nor do I suppose for a moment that the Minister would issue inaccurate information. At the beginning of this year, the Department issued a memo on pensions dated 12 January. It contains no instruction to give people the right information. That is an interesting date, because I received a letter on the same day giving inaccurate information.
Too often in politics, people are not prepared to accept responsibility. This situation arose when I was chairman of education for Bradford metropolitan district council and before the Minister entered the House, but I accept responsibility, as must we all. We must all find ways to deal with such matters. The Minister, in the undertaking that he has just given, and in terms of the ombudsman's report, will go some way towards doing so. I look forward to the Chancellor honouring the hon. Gentleman's pledge today. I hope that he will support him in that. It is a brave thing to come before one's Back Benchers and defy their wishes.
The Welfare Reform and Pensions Bill, which largely dealt with these matters, is now in another place. We spent many hours debating the Bill in Committee and on the Floor of the House. We hoped to receive some explanation of why the Government are abandoning a proportion of widows, but we have received no explanation in Committee, on Report or today. The Government have deliberately picked on a group of women who are unaware of their fate. The great advantage for the Government is that no one can identify the victims. The women are unaware--they are currently in a marriage, and they have a reasonable expectation of a long and happy marriage. Sadly, fate will deny them that. From a spin point of view, that is marvellous. There is no opposition, because no one can point out that they will lose from it. However, those women will have to face
not only the loss of a spouse, but the sudden realisation that their Government will abandon them at their time of greatest need.
The proposal offers the veneer of change under the cover of sexual equality. The Government are right to say that times are changing. Widows pensions were introduced in 1925 when the man was the main breadwinner. In 1999, things are changing--but they are not changing that fast. I welcome the fact that there are more women in the work force, and their increasing role, but these are early days.
The hon. Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) put it well on Report when she said:
Nobody is fooled by the veneer, which is entirely transparent. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody) said in the same debate:
"It will not do for Ministers to wrap it up in spurious feminism, claiming that the world has changed, women have moved on, women all work and they do not need the present provision. The world has not changed that much and the majority of women, particularly working-class women, still earn less than the majority of men."
The hon. Lady was absolutely right about "spurious feminism". The Government put on a veneer of sexual equality. They are using widows as the battering ram of social change, rather than as a reflection of social change. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts), from a sedentary position, does not show sufficient compassion. Surely it makes sense to carry out such a measure once matters have changed, rather than to use it as a battering ram to make the change.
"Many women who will be affected by the changes will not have had jobs, will not have qualifications and will find it impossible to find employment."
Unlike other matters in the welfare budget generally, the number of widows is falling. It fell by 30 per cent. between 1983 and 1997. This is simply a cost-cutting measure to save £600 million of money which, as the hon. Member for Newbury said, husbands have paid in over many years in the reasonable expectation that the Government would honour their pledges. This £600 million will force widows on to means-tested benefits.
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