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Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North): Is the hon. Gentleman opposed to supermarkets per se, or is he just opposed to out-of-town retail centres? There is a difference. A well-placed supermarket can provide an anchor for a town centre.
Mr. Taylor: I am opposed to bad sites, generally out of town, and also to the growth of larger hypermarkets which, increasingly, sell not only food but other goods. They will knock out competition, and, indeed, have been designed to do so.
The last year of the Conservative Government and the first year of the Labour Government saw similar levels of supermarket development, but I think that we face a real issue now.
Mr. David Drew (Stroud):
The hon. Gentleman has made an important point about existing planning permissions. I cannot specify the exact period, but it was always known that a considerable number of years of extant supermarket permissions would have to be gone through before the policy could change. Surely that is the crux of the problem.
Mr. Taylor:
The hon. Gentleman is entirely right. He may recall, as he was present for some of our debates on protecting green fields, that we argued that, while the Government were going through a process of review of planning guidance and planning law, they should put a hold on the development of some of those very large sites.
The hon. Gentleman is not right in suggesting that only extant permissions are involved. In north-west Coventry, for instance, inspectors have overturned local opposition to allow development of sites that they themselves have described as not ideal, and local authorities have given permission for major increases in the size of retailing facilities.
Mr. Tony McNulty (Harrow, East):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Taylor:
Not yet. I have already given way several times.
Last autumn, at the annual convention of "Action for Market Towns", the Minister made some helpful and positive comments. He was right to draw attention to the problem to which I have drawn attention today. He said:
Mr. James Gray (North Wiltshire):
Why have so many of the planning permissions that have been granted for huge out-of-town shopping centres been granted by Liberal Democrat-controlled councils? East Hampshire and Harrogate have done so, and my own North Wiltshire district council gave permission for a Sainsbury and a Safeway outside Chippenham, which have wrecked Chippenham high street.
Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough):
There is not one in Harrogate.
Mr. Taylor:
Yes; so the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) may be wrong about that. Moreover, he knows as well as I do that councillors, of whichever party, are obliged to follow the Government's planning guidance, and are at risk financially if they do not. They cannot refuse permission simply because the local community is against granting it, but may do so only on planning grounds. If planning guidance does not enable them to refuse permission, they cannot refuse it.
Rather more extraordinarily, the former Secretary of State--
The Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning (Mr. Richard Caborn):
What waffle.
Mr. Taylor:
How does the Minister explain the fact that councillors in my own area are facing surcharges precisely because they allegedly did not follow Government guidance? Councillors are clearly obliged to follow guidance and can be surcharged if they do not.
Mr. Caborn:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Taylor:
I shall give way to the Minister in a moment, but shall first answer the question of the hon. Member for North Wiltshire.
The former Secretary of State for the Environment, the right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), often argued against the previous Government's policy on supermarket development. I spoke to him today on the issue, and he supported the Liberal Democrats' position on it. Yet, when he was Secretary of State, he overturned the recommendation--not only of the local community, but of the inspector--that an out-of-town supermarket should not be built just up the road from my constituency.
Although we could all throw brickbats on the issue, we have made some progress on it, to put it most mildly. Now, the issue is how we shall address current issues. I
should like to mention specific issues facing the Government, on which their action does not match their briefings.
Mr. McNulty:
The hon. Gentleman said that the Government should block extant planning permissions. From what he has said, clearly, he is a planning expert. Will he therefore tell us how they are to block those extant permissions?
Mr. Taylor:
The policy position that we articulated in previous debates is that the Government should place a moratorium on granting further development permissions. If I said anything unclear in making that point, I hope that that will have clarified it. We have debated the issue at length in the House.
Mr. McNulty:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Taylor:
The hon. Gentleman has to let me make some progress.
The Government's position has much support. However, I should like to know whether the debate within Government in contrast to the Government's stated position--that current planning guidance will provide protection--will protect traditional town centres, as the Minister has said that it will.
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed):
When Labour Members think that there are no possibilities of Government intervention, they should remember that the Secretary of State overturned an existing planning permission in my constituency that is now the subject of a court case between the council and the Secretary of State.
Mr. Taylor:
I should like to deal with a couple of points before addressing the main issue in our motion. The first is that the Government have vacillated in their position on out-of-town supermarkets, between the need to restrain developments and the need to encourage competition between them.
In May 1996, for example, when Chris Davies--the former Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth, who is now a Member of the European Parliament--initiated a debate on the subject, that day's newspaper headlines proclaimed that the Government were to implement out-of-centre parking charges. Within hours, in an official statement, the possibility of such charges was rebutted, and it was said that they were no longer on the agenda.
The issue was raised again in debates on the transport White Paper, when the Government said that there would be parking charges on out-of-town supermarkets. We then heard the Deputy Prime Minister's fury in attacking the teeny-boppers at No. 10 Downing street for ruling out such charges after a meeting between supermarkets and No. 10 Downing street.
Similarly, Ministers at the Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions--I give the Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning credit for this--undoubtedly believe, and have argued very strongly, that major new out-of-town supermarkets should not be developed, and that the issue is not competition but protection of the countryside.
Nevertheless, there have been regular briefings from the Treasury and the Department of Trade and Industry, saying that they believe that competition is the higher priority, and that planning requirements should be softened.
Mr. Willis:
I should be grateful if my hon. Friend--and the Minister, who represents a Sheffield constituency--will address one crucial issue: differential support in rating valuations for supermarkets and town-centre shopping. Differential rating valuations between, particularly, small town centres and out-of-town shopping centres is making competition terribly unfair. Until we restore the balance between the two, we shall never solve the specific problem about which we are so concerned.
Mr. Taylor:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Liberal Democrats have made that argument many times in the House.
"Many superstores now offer services like banking and pharmacies, and can effectively take over the traditional role of the town centre. They also create fewer not more jobs in the local area."
Earlier this year, a report by the Select Committee on the Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs said that the Government should
"forbid future out-of-town or edge-of-town shopping centres or other developments which generate large amounts of private car travel".
24 Jun 1999 : Column 1344
That is not the existing policy; it is quite a large change in policy. So far, the Government say that they want a period of stability, rather than to change the policy.
My first worry is that the existing policy is not as strong as it has been presented to be. Neither the sequential test nor the test of need answer that point. The real issue is: will these developments be allowed, or are we going to take the line suggested by the Select Committee and say no to such developments in normal circumstances?
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