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Mr. Love: I have listened carefully to the hon. Gentleman's speech in support of supermarkets. What attitude will he strike when the next application for the development of a supermarket in his constituency comes along and his constituents are opposed to it?
Mr. Gray: The hon. Gentleman brings me on to my next point, which addresses that question. In the past 20 or so years, the number of out-of-town supermarkets has significantly increased. I welcome that to a large degree, because they have brought in their wake a great many other benefits, such as new roads, new housing and new schools. However, we are now nearing the point at which we have the right number of supermarkets supplying the right number of people.
In the town of Malmesbury in my constituency, a site is available on which Tesco is trying to get permission to build a new supermarket. Malmesbury is five miles from Chippenham, which already has two gigantic superstores, and three miles from Tetbury. There is a huge Tesco store just outside Tetbury. The people of Malmesbury, where there is a vibrant high street, would be much better off without a new supermarket. [Laughter.] I do not know why Liberal Democrats find that funny. I am simply saying that my constituency has a worthwhile supply of supermarkets. My constituents use them, but we do not want any more, because of the environmental damage that would be caused and also because, if we allowed too much competition, at least one of the supermarkets involved would probably go out of business. We would then face the problem of what to do with the site.
So far, this has been a one-sided debate. The planning issue should be about balance. It should be about supplying what all our constituents want, while also
preserving the countryside, preserving the high street and preserving the village store. The careful and subtle balance contained in planning policy guidance note 6, introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) when I was a special adviser to him, is precisely what we want in planning terms.
We want to supply the British people with the shopping experience that they now want. Incidentally, I heard on the radio this morning that there is talk of shoppers' actually paying to go shopping. My instinct would be to pay not to have to go shopping, but apparently that is the shopping experience that people want. On the one hand, we must give people what they want and need; on the other hand, we must have a balanced planning policy that protects our environment, saves our high streets and preserves our village stores.
Mr. David Lepper (Brighton, Pavilion):
I welcome the Liberal Democrats' choice of subject. Let me say at the outset that I have absolutely no interest in knocking the Liberal Democrats. In my constituency, Labour came first in the European elections; the Liberal Democrats came fourth, just about managing to beat the United Kingdom Independence party. I am afraid that any of my colleagues who are expecting to hear criticism of the Liberal Democrats should wait to hear another speaker.
In the past, I have hesitated to speak in debates on planning issues. Until last month, my wife chaired the Brighton and Hove council planning committee, and I thought it wise for just one member of the family to speak on such issues. My wife has now taken another role locally, and I am freed from that constraint.
It is certainly time that the Competition Commission investigated the whole question of grocery retailing and supermarket prices. We need an investigation, and I think that we need international league tables as well. Such tables would show us how much goods bought in this country would cost us in similar stores around the world, and would demonstrate the extent to which British shoppers are or are not being ripped off.
Having said that, let me make it clear that I do not wish to criticise either Liberal Democrats or supermarkets. In an intervention, my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Ms Keeble) made an important point about the need to distinguish between supermarkets and superstores.
The motion, the Government amendment and, indeed, comments that we have heard from Conservative Members today have a common theme: the need to ensure that development policies are consistent, especially in regard to out-of-town development. I welcome the assurance that the Minister gave me in reply to a question--last November, I think--that he had no plans to revise PPG 6 on town centres and retail development, and I welcome the further assurance that we have been given this afternoon. I was therefore surprised at the story published recently by The Guardian about relaxation of
the rules. Until I heard the speech by the hon. Member for Truro and St. Austell (Mr. Taylor), with its patchwork of press cuttings, I had--in my ignorance--no idea of the extent to which the story had permeated. None the less, the story in The Guardian surprised me, although it should not have done. From the reassurances that we have been given today, the story proves to have been yet another of The Guardian's own-goals in stirring up tales of U-turns by the Government.
I have the honour of being chairman of the all-party group on town centre management issues. The group has more than 200 members, comprised of Members of this place and of the other place, and of all political parties. In membership numbers, it is rivalled only by the parliamentary beer group--as we now have to call it, rather than beer club.
The support enjoyed by the all-party group on town centre management demonstrates the genuine concern felt by hon. Members on both sides of the House about the future of our town centres, not only as places in which to shop and work, but in which to live and enjoy our leisure time. Moreover, the concern is not only for major cities or conurbations--such as Brighton and Hove, part of which I represent, with a population of a quarter of a million people--but about our smaller market towns.
I therefore welcome the initiative taken by my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mr. Bradley)--who is not in the Chamber--which led to a recent report by the urban and economic development group on revitalising four small towns in his Shropshire constituency. I am sure that there are other examples of hon. Members, on both sides of the House, taking similar initiatives.
As the Minister said, next week, Lord Rogers will unveil the urban task force's report on regenerating our town and city centres. I am sure that we all eagerly await the report, to see what ideas it has on reversing the drift to the suburbs, to the edges of towns, and on to green-field sites--which, unfortunately, characterises so much of what happened, in the 1980s, under the previous Government.
I do not know what Lord Rogers's report will say about those issues, but know that, earlier this year, his summary of responses to the urban task force's prospectus stated:
Mr. McNulty:
Does my hon. Friend agree that the attempt to rubbish the sequential test in PPG 6 by the hon. Member for Truro and St. Austell (Mr. Taylor) owed more to his ignorance about planning than any lack of integrity in the test?
Mr. Lepper:
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, but I have already described my own humility in planning debates, although my wife was able to advise me on the issues. We should perhaps avoid lurching into addressing issues--[Interruption.] I do not criticise my hon. Friend--when we do not fully understand all of them.
I should like to deal with the issue of the difference between superstores and supermarkets. We have to acknowledge the important role that food retailers, with supermarkets, are able to play as partners in regenerating our town centres. They have played an important role in many of the important town management schemes, not only by helping to enhance the appeal of centres--in which they are already located, and to which they decide to locate--and creating jobs, but by ensuring that they very often act as a lever for other funding sources to help to regenerate those town centres. Sainsbury, for example, claims that its active involvement in, and support for, town management schemes has helped local authorities across the country to lever in more than £300 million of additional funding from central Government, Europe and private investors.
I have no particular remit for Sainsbury. In fact I actively opposed its plans for a 38,000 sq ft supermarket on a brown-field site as it was a completely inappropriate development. I am glad to say that the inspectors upheld the decision of the local council to oppose that application. While acknowledging that the proprietors of supermarkets can play an important role as private partners in regenerating our town centres, we must be aware of some of the concerns that have been raised this afternoon.
"a number of respondents agreed with the House of Commons Environment Select Committee proposals for sequential tests, where developers are required to demonstrate that they have exhaustively examined the possibilities of developing any available brownfield land before being allowed to go ahead with greenfield development."
I hope that all of us will endorse that position, on which the Minister has given us reassurances.
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