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6.8 pm
Mr. Norman Baker (Lewes): I am pleased to follow my near neighbour the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Mr. Lepper) who spoke largely in support of the Liberal Democrat motion. I very much hope that he will join us in the Lobby this evening. I note that the Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning is abstaining tonight, so the Government obviously have some sympathy with our motion.
Let me pick up on one point. There was considerable approval among Labour Members for what the Minister said and he gave us some welcome assurances. I want to be clear in my mind that his speech reflects the view of the entire Government. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and St. Austell (Mr. Taylor) said that there were two ways of looking at the issue. The part of the Government that seeks to protect the environment puts that foremost, whereas another part of the Government says that lower prices, competition and letting the market rip may be a good thing. That view is epitomised by the DTI. The Government need to make it clear which line they are taking.
That is the case not just on this issue. On genetically modified foods, the Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Minister for the Environment are cautious, while the Minister for the Cabinet Office and the Prime Minister are carefree and keen to push GM technology as fast as possible. The Deputy Prime Minister introduces bus lanes and the Prime Minister drives down them in his car. There are differences in the Government. We need clarification that the Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning was speaking on behalf not just of his Ministry, but of the whole Government, including the Department of Trade and Industry and the Prime Minister. Perhaps the Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food will give us that assurance.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Jeff Rooker):
If it enables the hon. Gentleman to get on to the important part of his speech, I am happy to assure him that every Minister who speaks at the Dispatch Box speaks on behalf of the Government, unless they say that they are speaking for themselves.
Mr. Baker:
I am grateful for that clarification. The important aspect of the debate is to tie the Government down, so I am glad to have heard that.
The hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr. Gray) said that people love their supermarkets and want to shop at them. People also want their corner shop to remain open. Finding the balance is important. The hon. Gentleman rather spoilt his case about supermarkets being wonderful by then saying that Chippenham high street had to be protected and he did not want a supermarket in his constituency. Never mind. We can gloss over that inconsistency.
Supermarkets bring benefits to the consumer, including lower prices--in some respects--ease of shopping and one-stop shopping. We know about those benefits, but there are disbenefits as well. The Government must ensure balance and should regulate when appropriate. Supermarkets have reduced the competition, particularly for groceries. The Conservatives mentioned a figure of 86 per cent. Village shops have closed around the country as a consequence of competition from supermarkets. That has happened in my constituency in villages such as Kingston. The effect of the concentration of ownership is like a cartel.
The Conservatives are also inconsistent in opposing any investigation into supermarkets and then complaining that farmers are not getting a fair deal as a consequence of the prices that supermarkets pay for their produce. That is
why we support an investigation into supermarkets. I commend the good work done by my hon. Friend the Member for South-East Cornwall (Mr. Breed) on that.
Supermarkets can be ruthless. A Sainsbury store opened in Newhaven three or four years ago. It is a very popular and well-frequented addition to the area that people welcome. When it opened, there was a petrol station, which was already struggling, within sight. The petrol station opened 24 hours a day to try to make a living. The supermarket then opened its petrol station 24 hours a day and put up a big hoarding opposite to attract customers. The independent petrol station went out of business and, lo and behold, the supermarket reverted to its normal hours for petrol sales. Supermarkets are ruthless. They are interested not in serving the public, but in boosting their profits. Governments should always remember the down sides of supermarkets as well as their benefits when they are regulating.
Supermarkets are extending their range of wares, not just in food, which was always their central reason for existing, but in other areas of retail. Supermarkets in my constituency now have chemists and sell clothes, toys and videos. All that attacks independent retailers elsewhere in the high street to the detriment of the whole high street.
Lewes has a successful and vibrant town centre. Many people come into the town to work and there is a big work force at county hall, the police headquarters and the health authority. People go to the town centre to do their shopping at lunch time. Yet even in such a successful town centre, there is nowhere outside the supermarket that sells half a pound of butter. If the supermarkets expand to sell clothes, toys and products that chemists sell, I wonder how long the independent retailers will exist.
I hope that the Government will follow through their planning policy and see what they can do to protect smaller shops. The point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Weston-super-Mare (Mr. Cotter) about business rates is important, and I am sorry that the Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning rather skated over that. The Government's amendment refers to the viability of town centres, so it was a legitimate point to raise. The Government should obtain the right balance by tipping it slightly in favour of smaller and independent shops, perhaps more than has been the case so far.
I was opposed for many reasons to the extension of Sunday trading. One consequence of that has been that the one day a week when small independent shops were able to make some money without competition from supermarkets has now been eroded. Many of them took more money on Sunday than the rest of the week put together and have now lost that opportunity. I regret that.
I should like the Government to consider car park charging for out-of-town shopping. That was referred to earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and St. Austell and is something that I support. The DETR was considering that as part of its transport White Paper until No. 10 stopped it in its tracks. Many people, quite erroneously, decide to shop where parking is free. They object to paying 20p to park in a town centre but they will drive 25 miles to an out-of-town supermarket where parking is free. [Interruption.] I can give the hon. Member for Harrow, East (Mr. McNulty) examples of that from my constituency. My constituents write to me and say that they will shop in Uckfield, for example, which is 10 miles
away, rather than pay 20p to shop in Lewes. Therefore, people do make such decisions, however illogical they may be.
It is time that we reflected the environmental costs of out-of-town shopping with car park charging, and I should like the Government to consider that carefully. It is not Liberal Democrat policy, but I would go further by making it difficult for supermarkets and other out-of-town stores to refund that parking ticket other than by lower prices, so that people are aware that they are making an environmental contribution by buying that ticket.
I do not want to be all negative about supermarkets because, as the hon. Member for North Wiltshire and others have said, they have benefits and we need a balanced debate. One function of supermarkets is as a last resort to help the consumer when the Government of the day have failed the consumer, and to articulate public opinion in the way that the Government sometimes do not do. It was supermarkets which led the campaign, following pressure from their customers, for dolphin-friendly tuna some years ago. The Government did not intend to do anything about that in a free market, but the supermarkets traced that back and tuna in supermarkets is now almost exclusively dolphin friendly.
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