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Mr. Rooker: I am trapped now. I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett).
Mr. Bennett: Does my hon. Friend agree that, although that referral may be welcome, it was sad that it included a criticism of the planning system by someone who appears not to have a clue about it?
Mr. Rooker: The Government are not getting involved; it is a matter for the competition authorities. The commission was set up to do a job that it was asked to do by this House, under statute. It would not be helpful for me to make any comments other than those that I have made already. I am now duty bound to give way to the hon. Member for Truro and St. Austell (Mr. Tayor).
Mr. Taylor: I appreciate the Minister's giving way. Not everyone would be so fair.
The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Mr. Bennett) expressed a concern about the competition report. That is why we hope that Ministers will confirm that, whatever the report concludes, the Government are determined to protect land and town centres. I hope that the Minister will also take the opportunity to dissociate the Government from anything that appears to have been said to newspapers on this subject by officials in at least one Department--the Department of Trade and Industry. I am sure that they did not speak on behalf of the Government but, understandably, they fed the rumours that led to this debate.
Mr. Rooker:
I am unable to say more than my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Regions, Regeneration and Planning said when he opened the debate. He spoke for the Government, collectively; he set the position out clearly. There will be no attempt by the Government to interfere with that inquiry.
In relation to food, last year, my right hon. Friend the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food set up a small group to consider the food chain initiative; it brought together farmers, manufacturers and retailers. We want food producers to exert more control over a larger part of the food supply chain. I realise of course that someone will say, "Look what happened when they did it with Milk Marque." We await, with interest, the results of the inquiry and the decision. That is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. However, MAFF has encouraged collaborative marketing. Compared with some of our European friends, partners and competitors, we do not have a history of such marketing, but it should be possible for farmers and food producers to talk to their neighbours without worrying about competition. It is in everyone's interest that there should be greater collaboration in marketing, food production and food supply.
Some producers worry about that, because they think that we want to force them into co-operative arrangements. That is not our intention. We want them to collaborate so that they can supply and control a larger part of the food chain. That will return added value to the producer. It is what happens in continental Europe and it is wholly to be applauded. Under such a system, there would be a greater chance of achieving wider distribution for some of this country's speciality foods, although there can never be a national supply of speciality, regional foods. However, that is why the initiatives that we have undertaken to try to get our local and regional brand names sanctified and codified in Europe are important to protect those names--
It being Seven o'clock, the debate stood adjourned.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. We must now move on to motion No. 3.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was on my feet, about to put the Question--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman was clearly too late. I am absolutely certain that the time had lapsed before I heard any call that the Question be now put. Therefore, I am afraid that the matter must lapse.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
I call Mr. Straw.
Mr. Tony Benn (Chesterfield):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I wish to raise a matter that has been put to the Speaker's Office, the Clerk and to the Home Secretary relating to the constitutional implications of today's debate. I make no comment about the merit of the order, which closes a loophole in the Prevention of Terrorism Act. Parliament can legislate to do what it likes, subject to two considerations which I put before you now. The first is that, under the Bill of Rights, the courts cannot question what we do. Secondly, we have a long tradition under the sub judice rule of not intervening in matters that are before the courts.
It so happens that the order pre-empts a matter that will come to the House of Lords in its judicial capacity on 19 July: whether the order and the Prevention of Terrorism Act are a contravention of the European convention on human rights to which we are bound by the Human Rights Act 1998. That was the view of the court of first instance and it was endorsed by the divisional court. The Lord Chief Justice said:
I appreciate that this is a difficult point. I simply suggest that there is a case for adjourning the debate until after 19 July to give Madam Speaker an opportunity to consider the constitutional implications of reaching a view about an order when it is contrary to the law of the land, subject to a House of Lords decision that has not yet been reached. I am grateful to you for listening to me, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is an important question and I hope that you will consider my request.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Madam Speaker is grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving notice of his intention to raise a point of order at this juncture. I have listened carefully to his comments. From his experience, he may recall that, so far as sub judice is concerned, our rule is that it does not apply to debates on legislation, including subordinate legislation. Therefore, we cannot be prevented from creating new legislation if that is the wish of the House.
The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Jack Straw):
I beg to move,
Yesterday, I was asked a number of questions by, among others, the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) and the right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Mr. Howard) about the chronology of events that had taken place since the article first came to our attention. It may be helpful to the right hon. Gentleman, the right hon. and learned Gentleman and the House if I provide more detail.
The article was published in issue 19 of Criminal Law Week on 24 May. It was brought to my attention via a faxed copy of the article sent to us by the Attorney-General's office on 26 May. Advice on the argument in the article was sought initially from officials and legal advisers within the Home Office, and then from the Law Officers on 1 June.
I know that my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General gave the matter extremely careful and detailed consideration. The final advice arrived from the Law Officers in the Home Office on 17 June. Officials provided me with detailed advice on 18 June, and the draft order reviving the provisions was laid yesterday, 23 June.
The matter may now seem straightforward--it turned out that part of the Prevention of Terrorism Act was inoperative--but it by no means seemed to be straightforward when the issue was first raised. Obviously, it was important to ascertain from the best legal advice available that what was suggested in one article in one law journal was likely to turn out to be an authoritative position.
I still do not know the author of the article, but plenty of articles that appear in law journals turn out not to be accurate. The right hon. and learned Member for Folkestone and Hythe is smiling. It is probably just as well that not all articles are authoritative, especially if one is the Home Secretary.
That is the chronology of events. We wanted to be sure about the position before seeking the approval of the House. Coming to the House yesterday, we were clear that the Act had been inoperative in respect of those parts, and we came to the House to remedy the matter.
The second issue that right hon. and hon. Members raised was whether I should have used the urgency procedures in section 27(7)(b) of the PTA in respect of reviving the provisions and immediately revived them, without coming before the House to seek retrospective approval. Of course I considered the matter carefully and took advice on the use of the urgency procedures, but those are used principally to deal with the need to revive provisions urgently because of a pending terrorist threat.
7.2 pm
"It seems to me that on the face of it both sections undermine in a blatant and obvious way, the presumption of innocence."
That is the law of the land until the House of Lords considers the matter and issues its judgment. Yesterday, obviously acting on advice, the Home Secretary said:
"The Government believe that these provisions, in their current form, are not incompatible with the ECHR".--[Official Report, 23 June 1999; Vol. 333, c. 1172.]
The House is being asked today--this is why I raise the matter as a point of order and not on its merits--to disregard the Lord Chief Justice's judgment. The issue goes even wider than that, because the European Court might hear a case regarding the matter. This is new territory for the House of Commons: we have always respected our relations with the courts, but now there is a new court.
That the draft Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 (Revival of Parts IVA and IVB) Order 1999, which was laid before this House on 23rd June, be approved.
I shall be as speedy as I can. When I wind up the debate, I shall try to respond to any points that I have not covered in my opening remarks. Yesterday, I explained the circumstances in which, regrettably, due to an error in the drafting of the 1998 and 1999 continuation orders, parts IVA and IVB of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1989 had not been in force since 22 March 1998. Today, I am seeking to revive those provisions but only from the day when the order becomes operative, not retrospectively.
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