House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Jun 1999 (pt 33)

5.30 pm

Mr. Leigh: Maintaining a list of organisations to be consulted is important. I take an interest in social security matters and I serve on the Select Committee on Social Security. It is often a feature of social security matters that, compared with many other areas, there is no well funded, widely based group of natural consultees. In contrast, the agricultural sector has some of the best organised lobbyists in the country, as does defence. If one is taking a decision in such matters, there is almost an embarrassment of riches in terms of consultation. However, the number of people who are sufficiently well funded and interested in social security matters to understand the technical nature of the subject, and who are prepared to be consulted and want to submit good proposals to Government is limited.

Mr. Tom Levitt (High Peak): I rise merely on a factual point to be helpful to the hon. Gentleman. He referred to a list of organisations to be consulted. That is not what this list is. This is a list of organisations that have been consulted in the course of the commission carrying out its duties. I am certain that it is not intended to be a list of the great and the good of approved organisations

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for consultation. I would hope that a huge range of organisations--any organisation--could be consulted if the commission thought fit.

Mr. Leigh: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for clearing up that point.

The point that I want to make is that, although often on social security matters there is a dearth of people to be consulted, or who have been consulted or may be consulted, there is a well organised disability lobby, and that is a good thing. It is the one social security area on which the Select Committee receives excellent briefings from those who might be affected by a proposal. Therefore, I am not too worried about the list of consultees with regard to the disability lobby. It is good, well organised and can put its case across extremely well.

However, I am concerned with the other side of the picture--the business lobby. Full transparency is important. Two obvious business organisations that might be consulted about a proposal are the Confederation of British Industry and the Institute of Directors. However, it is often difficult for such organisations, particularly the CBI, and particularly in relation to issues that might be under discussion by the commission, to take a robust, pro-business approach, if I may put it that way. Obviously, we are dealing with a sensitive area. We are dealing with people who may have severe disabilities and no business organisation, particularly those such as the CBI, wants to receive the bad publicity that it might receive if it is seen to be unduly negative about any proposal.

The Minister presumably has an idea of the sort of people who will be consulted, and I want to be assured that the list of consultees will go further than the large business organisations, which may find it difficult, in public at least, to take a robust attitude. It is important that they should take a robust attitude, that there should be a debate about these issues and that the two sides of the argument should be put. We are potentially talking about a lot of small businesses that might find enforcement of these procedures extremely onerous. That is not because they are unsympathetic to disabled people, but simply because they have limited resources.

I use the amendment as a peg to seek the Minister's reassurance that she understands that the consultation should not simply be limited in the business world to the Institute of Directors or the CBI, but should go wider--perhaps down to a local level, such as the chambers of trade and commerce and the Federation of Small Businesses--so that we ensure that the commission has before it both sides of an argument. Unless that happens, this could be an extremely intrusive organisation which proves damaging to the interests of business and, eventually, to disabled people themselves.

Mr. Peter Luff (Mid-Worcestershire): What I have to say follows from what my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) has just said. It relates not simply to what one might characterise as the awkward customers in the business lobby, but to the awkward customers in the disability lobby. It is clearly important that those who have clear and original thoughts should be included in the list of consultees and should be consulted by the commission.

What slightly concerns me about the amendment is that it gives the commission the right to remove from the list any organisation that it has not consulted for the past

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12 months, without a right of appeal by that organisation. Whether that is a small business organisation of the kind described by my hon. Friend, or a small disability rights lobby--[Interruption.]

Labour Members disagree, but I feel a little uncomfortable when I read:

"An organisation may be removed from the list if it has not been consulted generally in the 12 months preceding its removal."

I see no corresponding right for that organisation--disability rights organisation, commercial organisation or whatever--to appeal against that removal. The hon. Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) looks amazed and aghast at that idea, but it is entirely possible. I welcome the principle of open consultation and this addition to the Bill, but I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us that the commission will not exclude any body--I mean body in the legal sense, not individuals--or any organisation that could reasonably be expected to be included in consultation.

Ms Hodge: I am happy to confirm to the hon. Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell), in relation to the recovery of costs from individuals, that the Bill relates to the recovery of costs when an award for costs is made. That mirrors the position that exists for the other commissions. The Bill does not provide for the Disability Rights Commission to recover costs from compensation. Neither can they be recovered from settlements reached outside courts or tribunals, unless an amount for costs has been identified therein.

In relation to the charging policy, it will be for the commission to decide for which services it wishes to charge--for example, the distribution of papers. The commission is not expected to charge for general advice. As I said, I hope that the list of organisations will be placed on the internet where it will be free. However, if a particular organisation requires thousands of copies, it would not be unreasonable for the commission to charge.

With regard to whom the commission will consult and the specific request that it consult the business community, I reassure the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) and the hon. Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff) that the commission has been designed to take an evenhanded approach between those individuals who will be seeking to exercise their rights in relation to discrimination and those organisations providing goods and services to the public or acting as an employer.

It may reassure the hon. Member for Gainsborough to know that, on the disability rights task force, which I chair and which is discussing what further steps are needed to secure further comprehensive civil rights for disabled people, are representatives from not just the CBI and the Institute of Directors, but from the Federation of Small Businesses and the chambers of commerce. So we are aware of the need to ensure a broad spread of representation on that body.

We have yet to determine the precise composition of the new commission. We have not been able to do that because the Bill is not law yet, but as soon as it is, we shall ensure that it, too, reflects the broad spectrum of people who have an interest in the commission's workings. I expect there to be strong representation from the business community, the trade union movement, local government and perhaps the health service.

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It will, at the end of the day, be for the Disability Rights Commission to decide whom it chooses to consult on particular issues. The purpose behind the amendment, for hon. Members who were not present in the Committee, is to ensure that the process of consultation is transparent and that when the commission comes out with a policy proposal or new code of practice, we all know who has been consulted. It was in the interests of transparency, and perhaps to meet some of the fears expressed by Opposition Members, that we have moved the amendment.

Amendment agreed to.