House of Commons Hansard Debates for 30 Jun 1999 (pt 38)

6.49 pm

Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire): I hope that it goes without saying that the House would expect me to support this measure and to believe that this is an important day to celebrate. It is a stage on the road to the objective of full civil rights for disabled people and it is, therefore, strongly to be welcomed.

The Liberal Democrat spokesman, the hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten), attacked the yah-boo approach to this subject that has prevailed in the past. Although I accept that a lot of yah-boo politics and trivial point scoring take place in the Commons, I am in favour of a strong debate taking place, particularly on this subject. Had we not had as much outside campaigning and as many arguments from the previous Government about this issue, as well as a distinction between the principles involved, we would not have reached this point. Had the measure been sorted out by men and women of good will sitting around a table, we would not have achieved this sort of legislation and would not have tested out each others' ideas in quite the same way.

The strength of the ideas expressed by Labour Members, with the support of the Liberal Democrats, prevailed after the tussle with those who had other ideas. I was pleased that the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr. Leigh) spoke, because I remember some of the tussles with him. The views that he expressed today showed that, fundamentally, he still has the same attitude. It is important to have that honourable dispute in developing different positions.

When I introduced my version of the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill, which was a private Member's Bill, the hon. Member for Gainsborough spoke against it because he was worried about intrusive regulation. He now hopes that the operation of the changes will be benign, but in the past he expressed great fears that legislation of this type would not be benign. I remember pointing out that his arguments were against the Disability Discrimination Bill, which was going through the House at the same time. To judge by the look that he gave and his response on that occasion, and despite the fact that he was using the Disability Discrimination Bill to argue against the measure that I was proposing, he recognised that that was what motivated him.

We all benefit from such argument. John Stuart Mill once said, perhaps in a slightly sexist way, that he who knows only his own side of the argument knows little. Our argument was certainly developed considerably as a result of coming into conflict with the views of people with differing attitudes. One person who had a strongly differing attitude on this matter was the Leader of the Opposition. In the period to which I refer, two Bills

30 Jun 1999 : Column 398

were in competition with each other: the Disability Discrimination Bill and the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill. I am convinced that we would not have secured the Disability Discrimination Act 1995 if, the preceding year, the Bill proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry) had not been scuppered with a great deal of blood and heated yah-boo on the Floor of the House.

I then picked up the baton and ran my hon. Friend's measure. The techniques that were used against my Bill were different from those that had been used against his. It was a rival measure, while the blocking of the Civil Rights (Disabled Persons) Bill took place essentially in Committee with attempts to stop it getting back to the Floor of the House. The person who carried out those opposition techniques almost single handedly in Committee was the Leader of the Opposition.

Having talked to a Conservative Member who is now a Labour Member, the Minister for the Arts, my hon. Friend the Member for Newport, East (Mr. Howarth), I found out which Conservative Members to ask to join us. Most Conservatives and others sat on my side of the Committee and the Leader of the Opposition was often almost alone in battling for his position. He had to engage in all the filibustering on the amendments and would agree to the Bill's coming out of Committee only when nothing could be done with it. We had only 32 minutes on the Floor of the House in which to take about 108 amendments. The Leader of the Opposition gained promotion partly as a result of the role that he played in scuppering civil rights for disabled people.

I was pleased to hear the Minister say on Second Reading that civil rights for disabled people are on the agenda in the future and that we are moving in that direction. I welcome the fact that in the debate on the Queen's Speech the Leader of the Opposition immediately expressed support for the measure before us today. That, however, is a significant change and it comes about as a result of the nature of politics in this country. Those politics sometimes take place on the Floor of the House in the form of strong debate and dialectic argument, which help to produce the situation in which we find ourselves today. I am therefore keen that that sort of yah-boo should continue to take place. There was a sign of it in coded language in the speech of the hon. Member for Gainsborough.

Although we have had an interesting discussion on this Bill, it has been a little too cosy. One often needs arguments to be propounded that challenge one's own ideas, so that those can be improved. The ideas in the Bill have been challenged so much in the past that they are sufficiently well shaped and we did not need the disputes that we have had in the past. I welcome the fact that we have reached this stage and, like all good campaigners, I look forward to the next one.