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Mr. Martlew: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ottaway: No, I shall not give way.
Because the European convention was not incorporated in UK law at the time, those views expressed by the judges did not prevail. Will the Minister confirm, however, that following the introduction of the Human Rights Act, it is highly likely that the ban on homosexuals will be declared unlawful? How do the Government intend to respond to that? This is a most important issue and the forces must be ready for it.
Mr. Doug Henderson:
May I offer some information to the hon. Gentleman? It does not relates specifically to the question of homosexuality, but we are currently examining to what extent the services discipline Acts need to be modified in the light of the incorporation of the convention under the Human Rights Act. We hope shortly to announce our proposals.
Mr. Ottaway:
I am grateful to the Minister for that intervention, although I should have thought that the Government would think about those matters before introducing an Act, rather than afterwards.
Mr. Brazier:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way towards the end of his speech. As he implied, the Ministry of Defence has completely dropped the ball on this matter. Whereas the Department for Education and Employment got it right by acquiring specific exemptions for schools during the passage of the Bill, the Ministry of Defence acquired no exemptions for the armed forces. That just shows how far behind the kerb it is.
Mr. Ottaway:
My hon. Friend makes the point very well.
Mr. Martlew:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Ottaway:
No, I shall not give way again. I wish to bring my speech to a close and I have already given way to the hon. Gentleman once.
We live in challenging times. As we reach the close of this millennium, we have witnessed a century in which our armed forces have been at the centre of our lives and the nation's security. Our grandparents fought in the great war, when the huge loss of life brought home all the horrors and destruction of modern warfare. Our parents fought in the second world war, which brought the same violence and destruction to our very doorsteps. In the second half of this century, we have been fully involved in conflicts in Borneo, Suez, the Falklands, the Gulf and now the Balkans. The world remains an uncertain place.
Mr. Bruce George (Walsall, South):
When these debates begin, I always promise myself that I shall not be controversial, then I listen to Opposition Members and my resolve dissipates immediately. I cannot believe what I have heard. I have been on the Select Committee on Defence for many years, and have used the same arguments about overstretch against the Conservative Government as the hon. Member for Croydon, South (Mr. Ottaway) has just used. We wrote report after report, on "Options for Change", for the Army, for the Navy, for the Air Force and for the Reserves. When we had done that, we went back to "Options for Change" for the Army--there was a sense of deja vu.
The Government inherited many of the current problems. The Defence Committee argued strongly against the Conservative Government's cut in the number of infantry battalions from 55 to 29--which they should not have done--and the gross overstretch. We had nights out of bed. It got out of hand. Ministers blithely said time and again, "No, we've got it right. You're exaggerating. The world is a much safer place." Conservative Members should go to the doctor to get a cure for the amnesia that seems to afflict everyone who moves from the Government Benches to the Opposition Benches. They should recognise that they got it wrong: they saw the world as a wonderful place in which we could afford to cut our defence expenditure from 5.1 per cent. to 2.6 per cent.
The "Options for Change" process began when the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) was Secretary of State. When the Gulf war began, I thought that the Conservative Government would be forced to stop the defence cuts. "Options for Change" had been put in a drawer, and when the war was over the drawer was opened as though nothing had happened, and the cuts continued.
Mr. Tom King:
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. The Defence Committee's most recent report shows the problems of overstretch down the years. He is a fair-minded man, and he knows perfectly well that when "Options for Change" was originally written, the only real problem of unaccompanied tours was Northern Ireland. The Government are involved in what is, in effect, a second Northern Ireland in terms of the commitment of unaccompanied forces in a hostile area. I have supported them in that, but the hon. Gentleman surely recognises that the problem is now infinitely greater than it was before.
Mr. George:
I welcome that intervention. The right hon. Gentleman was a very able Secretary of State, and he is also fair-minded. He realises that the problems that have beset Government after Government are not unique. Governments get it wrong. When my party was in opposition, I did not always share its view; and since it
We must have adequate defence, and we must be aware of the fact that wars happen when we least expect them. In the old days one could whistle and guys joined up, whereas that no longer happens. The days are gone when aircraft carriers can be built fairly quickly--in about 15 years. Aircraft cannot be made swiftly: it takes 20 years. We must anticipate that the worst will happen. It is too late to start whingeing about a change in the situation when we are unable to change our response to that situation. We have a common approach, but the fair-mindedness which the right hon. Member for Bridgwater advocated should be spread around.
Mr. Key:
At one time, the hon. Gentleman and I served on the Defence Committee together, and my signature is also on the report on defence expenditure. He has been absent from some debates lately, and we have missed him. He bangs on about this issue, and says that he disagrees with what the previous Government did. Does it make sense that he should support a Government who are making matters worse?
Mr. George:
I have yet to reach the conclusion that matters are worse: they have a long way to fall before they replicate the decline under the previous Government. I am not a mathematician, but I estimate that, if this Government had continued the downward path of defence expenditure, we would be minus about £5 billion a year within five years.
Dr. Julian Lewis (New Forest, East):
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. George:
No, I shall not give way for the moment--perhaps later. I want to get on with my speech.
I welcome the new format of the defence debates. It is far more rational to have a debate on functional issues, rather than the nonsense of debates on single-service issues. It is a great shame, given that our armed forces have fought a war so recently, that only 25 right hon. and hon. Members can stir themselves to attend the debate. It is important for the House to scrutinise and to influence matters.
Last Friday was an important event in parliamentary history: it was the 20th anniversary of the establishment of the Select Committee system, which enabled the House to monitor, scrutinise, reinforce civilian control and sometimes have a degree of influence. Twenty years after that new Select Committee system was established, I hope that the Modernisation, Procedure and Liaison Committees will say that it is time to give Select Committees some power so that they can discharge their obligations more effectively.
I am pleased that many Defence Committee reports have been mentioned. The strength of the Committee is that we give hell to everyone. It is not our responsibility
to cheer. There have been few occasions on which cheering has been necessary. I hope that the Select Committees are given some teeth.
I want to talk about what the Defence Committee has been doing and will be doing. Manpower is pivotal. The Defence Committee report on the strategic defence review is not a ritualistic eulogy. It states:
"The quality of its people is perhaps the defining characteristic of the UK's Armed Forces. The morale, quality, training and ethos of those people are fundamental to the UK's ability to undertake its military tasks, and the success of the proposals set out in the SDR in maintaining or enhancing these elements will be one of the most fundamental criteria by which it will be judged."
That is important. We often forget that the image of the British soldier was not always the image that that soldier maintains today. The collective image of the armed forces is infinitely greater in public esteem than our own profession. They are at one end of the scale and we are, perhaps deservedly, at the other.
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