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Mr. David Trimble (Upper Bann): I echo the words of the Leader of the Opposition in thanking the Prime Minister and, indeed, Taoiseach Ahern for the amount of time that they have devoted to this issue, and for spending all of last week in Belfast. It is appreciated and, as the Prime Minister is aware, it is also appreciated by my Assembly colleagues--even if we differ slightly as to the outcome of matters.
The Prime Minister knows that my Assembly colleagues and I want to see devolution, and that we want to see actual decommissioning occur. However, he also knows that, in asking us to include Sinn Fein in an Executive in advance of decommissioning, he asks us to sacrifice the democratic principle to expediency. He is asking us to take a gamble with an ineffective and unfair safety net. That point has already been made. The question is: why close all the institutions? In effect, why give a veto to the paramilitaries? That would mean that, if the IRA does not like the results of, say, the Patten commission on policing, it could close things down, simply by delaying decommissioning. It also gives other paramilitaries a veto.
What will happen if the UDA, the UVF, the LVF or the INLA decide that they will stop decommissioning in order to destroy all the institutions of the agreements? That is not an effective remedy. The remedy should be directed towards the parties in default. With regard to the other paramilitaries, closing the Executive is no penalty; the only possible penalty has to do with prisoners. That has to be looked at again.
Finally, does the Prime Minister recall that, at the beginning of last week, he was seeking a series of declarations--especially one from Sinn Fein that the war
was finished, over, done with and gone? He also wanted from Sinn Fein a declaration that it will succeed in persuading those with arms to decommission. He was also seeking from the IRA a statement that, in effect, accepted the Sinn Fein statement. What happened to those declarations?
The Prime Minister:
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words about the time that we spent in Belfast. I do not regret any of the time that I spend in Belfast--occasionally, I wish it were slightly more productive. I also thank him for the constructive way in which he has engaged in the negotiations. I entirely understand the anxieties that he rightly represents.
If the issue is the democratic principle that we cannot sit in government with people who have a private army in reserve, every democrat would agree with that. The reason why I believe this process to be superior to Hillsborough is that, in the Hillsborough declaration, we could have had a token act of decommissioning, but we could still have been sitting in an Executive with people who had a private army. After all, if they get rid of one load of weapons, that is not the same as getting rid of everything. It is, therefore, better to have a process of complete decommissioning; I think that the right hon. Gentleman would accept that. The issue is simply how it starts. I hope that I have provided some assurance as to that by saying that the process of decommissioning, which begins with the explicit statement on behalf of the paramilitary organisation, has to start within days, otherwise, we go back immediately and rewind the position.
The second point that the right hon. Gentleman makes is about the ineffective and unfair safety net. Surely that is precisely what we should try to discuss in the coming days, because there will have to be legislation, which will be properly scrutinised, and the points that he is making--perfectly fairly--need to be taken into account. For example, he asks why groups that have not decommissioned should have a veto over the process. In a sense, one could say that, by not decommissioning now, they have a veto over the process, but I think that our way of dealing with it prevents them from having a veto because the suspension is not the only thing that happens. We then go into a review, and then we can invite the parties to take a different way forward. So we do not--and should not--end up in a situation where the defaulting party manages to bring punishment upon everyone else and no punishment upon itself. I agree with that. Again, we are happy to look at a way that we can deal with that objection.
In respect also of the loyalists, I think that it is very important to realise that, although the loyalists will not be part of the Executive, none the less they have the obligation to decommission. The entire range of factors that must be taken into account are very clearly set out in the legislation on prisoners, and I would refer back to them in detail.
The right hon. Gentleman also asked whether it would be right to end up closing all the institutions. There was an implication there--this may be a misunderstanding--that all those institutions would come to an end and never be revived. That would not be my view as to the way forward. There must be a suspension--otherwise,
the Unionists are left on the Executive with those who have refused to decommission or are in breach of their agreement--but then we must find a way forward that ensures that the institutions do work again, but work in a way that is consistent with the democratic mandate of the Ulster Unionist party and the other parties, ensuring that those parties in default pay the price for being in default.
Finally, in relation to the declarations by Sinn Fein and the IRA, I have set out where the IRA would have to make its statement, but I want to make this point very, very clear indeed. We could have decided to go with a process that depended on words. We have decided not to do that. This process depends on actual decommissioning happening--actions. If there are not actions, the failsafe kicks in immediately. So I am not asking us to be in a situation where we are expecting democrats to sit in the Executive with organisations linked to paramilitary groups, which then can simply sit there, keeping their weapons, no one being able to do anything about it. We are not saying that words are the protection. There has to be actual decommissioning. If there is not actual decommissioning, the failsafe kicks in, and then we can find a different, and better, way forward.
Mr. Kevin McNamara (Hull, North):
I congratulate my right hon. Friend and the Taoiseach on the tenacity of purpose that they showed over the past week and their determination to try to bring to an end more than 30 years of mayhem, death and destruction. I also pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, who has been most unfairly pilloried during the past few days. She has the admiration and support of every Labour Member.
Can my right hon. Friend confirm that any Executive must have the support of both sides of the community; that on each side of the community more than one party must agree with what is going on; and that, therefore, it does not necessarily follow that there could be an Executive without Sinn Fein?
Secondly, can my right hon. Friend confirm that, for the first time, he has got from Sinn Fein an understanding that he has regarded as being one of the greatest movements of position in politics in Ireland for many, many years? That must be put to the test, and the way that he has suggested puts it to the test. Anyone who would seek to throw that away in a fit of pique or because they wanted every t crossed and every i dotted would, if they persisted in that, be subject to a great deal of deserved criticism from all the peoples in these islands.
The Prime Minister:
First, I think that I know better than anyone else what my right hon. Friend has had to go through over the past two years in doing her job. I know of the difficulties that it has caused her from time to time. I can assure the House that I am second to none in my admiration for the way in which she has done her job.
Secondly, my hon. Friend the Member for Hull, North (Mr. McNamara) made a very correct point about both sides of the community. We should never forget that more parties than Sinn Fein and the Ulster Unionists are involved in these matters. There are other political parties with a mandate--most notably there is the SDLP, but there are others which also need to be taken account of.
Thirdly, as for Sinn Fein and the statements that it has made, I believe that it is prepared to make this historic shift. However, I do not believe that the Unionists should
have to rely upon that. That is why I think that it is right to put it to the test. The detail obviously matters as well, and I hope that it is properly scrutinised. I only ask people to let us have a discussion about the detail to see whether the justifiable anxieties and concerns can be allayed.
Mr. John Major (Huntingdon):
It is possible that we may be near the conclusion of a very long trail. I hope that everyone will look clearly at both the opportunities and the difficulties that lie immediately ahead of us.
The Prime Minister and the party leaders have done extraordinarily well to expose the questions that were always going to be there at the end of the day--will the IRA decommission and can the word of Sinn Fein bind the IRA and its future actions? If the answer to those questions is yes, I think that peace is at hand and that democracy has a triumph. If the answers are no, the Prime Minister is surely right to say that Sinn Fein cannot sit on the power-sharing Executive. In those circumstances, I would seek some clarification.
The Prime Minister said a moment ago that the Executive and perhaps the Assembly would be suspended. Will he confirm that that would happen very briefly? Will the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the Irish Government agree with that policy, and with the Executive and the Assembly then continuing without Sinn Fein? Will he tell the House also whether he has discussed or will discuss with all the political parties, including most importantly for this purpose the Catholic majority party, the SDLP, whether they would remain in an Executive and an Assembly were Sinn Fein to have been removed from it for not decommissioning its arms? That is a crucial point.
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