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Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (West Derbyshire): There have been several closures of small rural post offices in my constituency. One of the biggest problems for the Post Office is recruiting new people to run small sub-post offices. Will the Secretary of State direct the
Post Office to pay the national minimum wage to sub-postmasters for the hours for which they are contracted?
Mr. Byers: The hon. Gentleman opposed the minimum wage legislation, so he will know that all employees are covered by the national minimum wage but self-employed people are not. Perhaps unsurprisingly, there is some confusion in his thinking. We are giving the Post Office commercial freedom, so it will not be my responsibility or that of any future Secretary of State to give it orders or instructions. We are no longer in that game. Commercial freedom means allowing the Post Office to manage within the strategic plan that we agree with it.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover): Will my right hon. Friend advocate that, when we draw up our manifesto proposals for the next general election, privatisation should not figure among them? Did he consult the trade unions, did they agree, and will any job losses arise from his statement? Does he have any scars on his back?
Mr. Byers: Having been a member of the Labour party for 26 years, I have many scars on my back, as I am sure my hon. Friend also has. The manifesto will be determined not by me but through the Labour party's normal policy-making process. The trade unions were involved in discussing the White Paper and how we can take the Post Office into the next century. They will express their views on the details that it contains. I hope that when they have studied it and seen the balanced approach that we are taking, they will feel that we have made the right decision.
I am sure that no job losses will arise from the recommendations that we are making today, for the simple reason that we are providing extra money for the Post Office. Hon. Members should not forget that we are providing an extra £175 million for the Post Office immediately, this year, and £600 million over the next three years. I hope that more people will be employed as a result of today's announcement.
Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood):
The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) asked about the justification for continued public ownership of the shares, and the Secretary of State has laid great stress on the new regulatory framework that he intends will ensure the continuation of universal service and protect against the abuse of monopoly by Post Office plc. When he considers whether the shares should remain in public ownership, will he speculate about the arguments that might be advanced by the hon. Member for Bolsover that they should? Will he find those arguments persuasive, or would it not be a better use of taxpayers' resources to realise their investment in Post Office plc? Would not that enable investment to be made in the creaking infrastructure of transport and schools, for which the taxpayer is directly responsible?
Mr. Byers:
The right hon. Gentleman used to be a Treasury Minister, and his was one of the dead hands that used to lie on the Post Office. I do not know whether it was under his stewardship that 93p in the pound was taken away from Post Office profits. I am not in the business of
Mr. Derek Foster (Bishop Auckland):
In celebrating the world-class success of the Post Office as a public business, may I congratulate my right hon. Friend on granting it greater commercial freedom in the public sector? That is essential for the Post Office's competitiveness in Europe. Is he aware that he has given enormous heart to those of us who have always believed that the public service can be modernised and made fit for the challenges of the 21st century, without the headlong rush to privatisation?
Mr. Byers:
I thank my right hon. Friend, who I know follows these issues extremely closely. The proposals in today's White Paper are balanced and do not permit a diversionary argument about privatisation of the Post Office. I hope that I have made it clear, through the establishment of a public limited company for the Post Office, that privatisation is not the Government's objective. We want to give the Post Office greater commercial freedom in the public sector. That was our 1997 manifesto commitment, and the proposals in the White Paper will deliver it.
Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch):
Will the Secretary of State say why he thinks that the Germans are fully privatising their post office? Might the reason be that they want it to be a leading global player? How does he think our Post Office will be able to compete with that?
Mr. Skinner:
I thought the hon. Gentleman was against the Germans.
Mr. Byers:
We managed to take a bit of the private sector German Parcels business into public ownership a few months ago. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover will welcome that example of the public sector taking over some of the private sector.
The decision about the German post office was a matter for the German authorities. Our job is to determine what is best for Britain. We believe that we can build on the Post Office that we have, and that a plc in public ownership is the best model to achieve the challenging objectives set out in today's White Paper.
Mr. John McWilliam (Blaydon):
Why was the idea of an independently owned public corporation dropped? Was it because the Treasury operates under rules drawn up in the 1920s and 1930s? Is not it about time that it was dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, so that we do not have this nonsense again when attention turns to the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency, which is the next target? Finally, did my right hon. Friend see the expression on the faces of Conservative Members when he announced the formation of a plc for the Post Office? It reminded me of the look that my dog has when I leave the fridge door open.
Mr. Byers:
We did consider in detail the arguments for establishing an independent publicly owned company. Much research has been done into that model, but we
Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks):
Is the Secretary of State not creating a rather messy hybrid, a sort of pre-privatisation Patco, which has the potential toabuse its dominant position? Can he reassure other communications businesses that the greater commercial freedom which he is offering the Post Office will not be fully exercised until the regulatory framework is in place?
Mr. Byers:
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we need to establish the regulator to make sure that there is no abuse of the monopoly position in the area in which there is no competition. Where items cost more than 50p or weigh more than 150 g, there will be competition, and the regulator will have no role. We hope to establish the regulator by April next year to ensure that there is no abuse of the type outlined by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Peter L. Pike (Burnley):
Will my right hon. Friend assure us that in guaranteeing the crucial network of post offices across the country, he will make it a requirement that the level and range of services must be maintained? Services must be protected for the future and developed as the Post Office changes in its new format.
Mr. Byers:
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I am keen to establish a post office network that does not deal only with payment of benefits, which it does effectively, or even with extensions to passports--it should offer a range of services not currently offered. As part of our agenda for modernising Government, we should see the network of 19,000 post offices as a key to local delivery of important Government services. A working party has been set up in my Department to ensure that we modernise the network and that new technology will be made available. We have to make sure that extended services are available to meet the needs of people locally, to support local communities and to ensure the future of the network.
Mr. Peter Brooke (Cities of London and Westminster):
May I ask a London question? Of the 12 postal districts in my constituency, the quality of
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