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Orders of the Day
Youth Justice and Criminal Evidence Bill [Lords]
As amended in the Committee, considered.
Brought up, and read the First time.
Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale):
I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin):
With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 1, in clause 1, page 1, line 8, leave out Clauses 1 and 2.
No. 12, in page 1, line 16, at end insert--
Mr. Greenway:
Part I introduces a new sentence for young offenders of referral to a youth offender panel. Panels will be established by the youth offender teams which owe their existence to the provisions of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. The purpose of the panel is to draw up a programme of reparation, rehabilitation and, where appropriate, reintegration, aimed at addressing the young person's offending behaviour with a view to preventing him or her from reoffending in future.
I am glad to see the Home Secretary here. We support the concept of the referral order and believe that, properly resourced and constituted, youth offender panels have the potential to provide a more structured and coherent programme of support and reparation for a young offender than has been the usual experience with the generality of community sentences.
In Committee we highlighted some important elements where we have some disagreement with the Government about the way in which the new sentencing option is being introduced. New clause 1 offers a better framework and structure for the introduction of this important initiative, the genesis for which lies in much of the work of the last Government and taken forward by this Government, than the Government scheme. In addition and so that we can get the maximum out of this afternoon's debate, new clause 1 addresses all the important elements that were debated in Committee on which there was some disagreement.
The first concern that we addressed was whether this new option should be available only in youth and magistrates courts. We probed the Government to find out why the referral order was not apparently available to the Crown courts. The Government's view is that the number of occasions when a young offender might be dealt with by a Crown court in the circumstances which would allow or might require a referral order are sufficiently few to leave it to the magistrates or youth court to make the referral. A Crown court can send a young offender back to a youth court for that purpose, as required. Although we still believe that this is an unnecessary complication, it is not a key issue for us, so new clause 1 incorporates in the first line the same wording as in the Government scheme, restricting the power to youth and magistrates courts. We are happy to accept and reflect the Government's view on that.
Our most fundamental disagreement remains with the Government's insistence that the referral order should be mandatory, certainly in the first instance, for a first time offender who pleads guilty. We shall come on to the plea of guilty aspect later. We think that it is a mistake for the referral order to be mandatory.
The House will be aware that in another place the mandatory nature of the referral order was changed to provide the court with discretion. In Committee that change was reversed to reinstate the mandatory nature of the referral order. We find it slightly surprising that in the other place Liberal Democrat Members supported the amendment of my noble Friend Lord Windlesham whereas in Committee the Liberal Democrat Member voted against his noble Friends and in support of the Government. We note with some enthusiasm that as in Committee when the Liberal Democrats tabled one amendment, so on Report they have tabled one amendment. As will be clear from new clause 1 we agree that the availability of a conditional discharge to the court in the circumstances would be welcome.
We remain of the view that to make the referral mandatory for first time young offenders is a mistake because these are not the group of offenders for whom mandatory sentences should be thought appropriate. Notwithstanding the fact that these are pilot arrangements, so are capable of adaptation and adjustment in the light of experience, we envisage that a court will frequently have to make a referral order against its better judgment. In all sincerity I suggest to the Home Secretary that that has the prospect of undermining confidence in the scheme. To allow the court virtually no discretion for first-time offenders is bad law and will lead to rough justice and inconsistency.
First and in many respects most importantly, we need to question the range of offences which a young offender may have committed which would justify a mandatory requirement for the young person to work with a youth offender panel to address his offending behaviour and make reparation. As drafted, the Bill regards any offence as deserving such treatment. I do not know whether the Home Secretary has had time to study the Hansard reports of the Committee which was good natured. Although we had some disagreements it was not one of those Committees where we fought to the wire on many issues. When I pointed out that some offences were less serious and sufficiently minor not to justify a referral, I was asked to suggest one. I outlined the case of a 17-year-old motorist, perhaps about to go to university, of previous good character who drove through a red traffic light or was caught speeding. In a number of circumstances such a young motorist, like any other motorist stopped by the police and told of his transgression, might be given a fixed penalty ticket.
The Minister of State, Home Office, the hon. Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), has recently expressed concern about a particularly prevalent minor offence that youngsters are wont to commit, which is cycling on the pavement. I must confess that that offence did not cross my mind. Yesterday, the Minister tabled a statutory instrument, which provides for an on-the-spot fine or fixed penalty notice for the offence of cycling on the footway contrary to section 72 of the Highway Act 1835.
The Minister and the House will know from early-day motion 766 that not all his hon. Friends--indeed, not all of mine either--consider cycling on the pavement to be a punishable offence, let alone punishable with on-the-spot fines. There are as many as 27 signatures to that early-day motion. If we pray against that statutory instrument and there is a vote on it, it will be interesting to see how many of the Minister's hon. Friends vote against it and in support of that early-day motion.
This is good-natured banter, but cycling on the pavement is illegal, and can be dangerous. In response to my suggestion that someone going through a red traffic light should be considered a danger to the rest of society, the Minister said that he could introduce me to the parents of children who had been maimed as a result of such behaviour. I fully accept that, but the House should also reflect on the fact that there is an equal prospect of some young tearaway who cycles on the pavement posing a similar danger. Although some people approve of cycling on the pavement as it is safer for the cyclist, given the state of the traffic on the roads, it can be dangerous for the people on the pavement. I have no qualms about the Minister's intention to give the police an additional power to take action if they think it is required.
Whether the offence is going through a red traffic light, speeding or cycling on the pavement, as the Bill is construed a young offender will pay a fine if the police choose to give him a fixed penalty notice, whereas another offender who commits an identical offence will be summoned to appear in court, whereupon, having pleaded guilty, the magistrate will, under the Bill, have no option but to refer him to a youth offender panel.
'.--(1) This section applies where a youth court or other magistrates' court is dealing with a person under the age of 18 for an offence for which a custodial sentence is available and--
(a) neither the offence nor any associated offence is one for which the sentence is fixed by law;
(b) the court is not, in respect of the offence or any associated offence, proposing to impose a custodial sentence on the offender or make a hospital order in his case;
(c) the court is not proposing to impose a fine; and
(d) the court is not proposing to impose a conditional discharge.
(2) If the referral conditions are satisfied in accordance with subsection (3) and referral is available to the court, the court shall order the offender to be referred to a youth offender panel.
(3) The referral conditions are satisfied if the offender pleaded guilty to the offence or any associated offence and has never been convicted by or before a court in the United Kingdom of any offence other than the offence and any associated offence.
(4) For the purposes of this section referral is available to a court if--
(a) the court has been notified by the Secretary of State that arrangements for the implementation of referral orders are available in the area in which it appears to the court that the offender resides or will reside; and
(b) the notice has not been withdrawn.
(5) In this Part "referral order" means an order undersubsection (2).
(6) The Secretary of State may by regulations make such amendments of this section as he considers appropriate for altering in any way the descriptions of offenders in the case of which the referral conditions fall to be satisfied for the purposes of subsection (3).
(7) Any description of offender having effect for those purposes by virtue of such regulations may be framed by reference to such matters as the Secretary of State considers appropriate, including (in particular) one or more of the following--
(a) the offender's age;
(b) how the offender has pleaded;
(c) the offence (or offences) of which the offender has been convicted;
(d) the offender's previous convictions (if any);
(e) how (if at all) the offender has been previously punished or otherwise dealt with by any court;
(f) any characteristics or behaviour of, or circumstances relating to, any person who has at any time been charged in the same proceedings as the offender (whether or not in respect of the same offence); and
(g) whether the offender has previously been subject to a referral order.
(8) For the purposes of this section an offender who has been convicted of an offence in respect of which he was conditionally discharged (whether by a court in England and Wales or in Northern Ireland) shall be treated, despite--
(b) Article 6(1) of the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 1996 (corresponding provision for Northern Ireland),
as having been convicted of that offence'.--[Mr. Greenway.]
2.10 pm
'(d) the court is not proposing to impose a conditional discharge.'.
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