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Mr. Dawson: It is with regret that I disagree withthe comments of the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway), as I fully realise that, throughout our consideration of the Bill, he has pursued his case with sincerity, great knowledge and experience. Nevertheless, I think that he has totally missed the point on the radical nature of the proposals--which are not at all intended to reflect a youth justice system that has become discredited among not only young people but those who have felt its inadequacies, whether as victims or those who work within that system. The Bill offers an approach that is absolutely trying to deal with young people at the crucial moment--when they first appear in court.
Far from being inflexible, the approach offers the supreme flexibility of providing young people with an opportunity, over a significant period of between three and 12 months, to sit with a panel that would include their parents, representatives from various agencies, people from the community and possibly victims of their offences; to use that opportunity to be confronted with the reality of their offending; and to have the underlying and overt reasons for their offending uncovered, analysed and challenged. They would also have the opportunity to make reparation to an individual victim or, perhaps more likely, to the wider community.
In Committee, the hon. Member for Ryedale raised the issue of young people who are apprehended for going
through a red traffic light. I told him then, and I tell him now, that I could today put together a programme for a young person who had been convicted of such an offence--which is a very serious one indeed--involving the auspices of other groups in the community, that would shake that young person to the core about what happens when one speeds in a motorcar. Does anyone think that that is less worthwhile than a young person appearing in court and receiving a fine that may be paid by his or her parents?
Lorna Fitzsimons (Rochdale):
Is my hon. Friend aware of a cutting-edge young offenders programme that is being operated at Buckley Hall prison by the prisoners themselves? The programme--which is receiving accreditation--is being operated just as my hon. Friend has described, by talking about people who have thrown away their lives by using cars to do things that they have come to regret. Additionally, the programme is thought to be so worthwhile that the people behind it are giving presentations to magistrates across the north-west region.
Mr. Dawson:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Although I am not aware of that project, it is a perfect example of what I am talking about--a programme devised by those who have been through experiences that have meaning for offenders and to which offenders are able to respond.
I regret to say that the out-of-date approach to youth justice being advocated by the Opposition threatens to undermine the Bill's entire purpose. If we were to allow crucial get-outs, such as opportunities for young people to be dealt with in a conditional discharge and a fine, we should miss the crucially important moment--the first appearance in court--and that crucial chance to influence behaviour at that level.
As one who worked in the youth justice system for some years, I tell the hon. Member for Ryedale that one of the system's greatest failings was that, in far too many cases, by the time we got to the young people for whom we were trying to develop programmes as alternatives to custodial sentences--they had all the cautions, court appearances, fines, conditional discharges, and attendance and supervision orders behind them--they were lost to us. The moment had gone.
The Bill creates the opportunity to use the crucial moment. It brings a radical approach to justice that is meaningful to the young person and to the community, restores to the community what it has lost to offending, and gives young people an opportunity to move on and face what they have done. The approach is novel, and it builds on good experience from around the world. It is what we need in the new youth justice system, and I hope that all hon. Members will wholeheartedly support it.
Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed):
Liberal Democrat Members strongly support the creation of youth offender panels, which are based on experience from not only around the world, but across the border. Some elements of Scotland's children's panels and children's hearings, which have worked well in Scotland, have been incorporated in the proposed process. We hope that the panels will provide the basis of a new approach to youth offending, and offer a more constructive response to young offenders that is based on examining the causes and consequences of their behaviour.
We also hope that the proposals will inspire a bit more confidence in victims that the young people concerned are being confronted with the consequences of their actions. We often forget how, often, victims feel that current court procedures offer absolutely nothing to them, leaving them feeling as if they would just like to get hold of the person who perpetrated the crime and give them a good talking to about what it means to be a victim and the adverse effects of their crime.
Our amendment No. 12, which is in this group, is a modest amendment that would introduce a little more flexibility to the system created by the Bill. The court will not currently have to refer first-time offenders who plead guilty to a youth offender panel if it is proposingto impose a custodial sentence or an unconditional discharge--decisions that fall at opposite ends of the scale. If neither course of action is proposed, referral to a youth offender panel will be required. The amendment would give the court the further option of a conditional discharge.
We support the Government's view that when the conditions are met, referral to a youth offender panel should be mandatory. For the new system of youth justice to be proved effective, it needs to be widely used. In the Scottish system, if guilt is accepted the children's hearing is automatic. We agree that that principle should apply. Over time we want it to be broadened beyond first-time offenders. As we gain more experience, we would like the provision to be available for a wider range of offenders.
However, we believe that giving magistrates complete discretion--which we normally favour--runs the risk of limiting the effect of that useful development in youth justice at a time when it needs to be given a fair, broad trial over a lot of cases. There is a strong case for allowing the court an extra option before the referral becomes automatic. Unless the Government accept the amendment, they will effectively abolish the conditional discharge for first-time offenders who plead guilty. They may be the most likely to respond to a conditional discharge. In some cases it would be the most effective response to the crime and it would not be sensible to drain the limited resources of the youth offender panels, so there is merit in a modicum of additional discretion.
At the moment, absolute discharge is rarely used compared with conditional discharge. Courts can impose a condition of non-offending behaviour for a year or more, so we think that it would be a useful way of avoiding clogging the new youth offender panels with minor offenders.
The Government's objection to similar amendments in this House and the other place seems to have been that they do not like conditional discharges because they send the wrong message. Are they saying that they no longer see any use in conditional discharges for first-time young offenders who plead guilty? Are they saying that they are no use for young offenders? Are they sure that the new youth offender panels will have the resources to deal with all who may currently receive a conditional discharge?
Our proposal has gained considerable support since it was first put forward in the other place by my noble Friend Lord Dholakia. It was proposed in the Standing Committee with the support of the three Opposition parties represented there.
The Conservative new clause on the new power of referral to a youth offender panel has been explained to us exhaustively. The aim of the new clause is to rewrite
the relevant clauses in the Bill. It would meet our request by allowing conditional discharge as an option. It would also go further by allowing a fine. We understand that argument, but we do not think that the Government will be persuaded of it. Our concern about the new clause is that it would limit the use of referral to only those first-time offenders who plead guilty to an offence for which a custodial sentence is available. We are not convinced that referrals should be limited in that way. The new system of youth offender panels could respond effectively to offences for which there is no custodial sentence available. We prefer the Government's wording. The panel's contracts will be a new form of community sentence. Although the new clause has other merits, it imposes too great a restriction and we do not support it.
Sir Nicholas Lyell (North-East Bedfordshire):
I am glad to play a small part at this stage. The new clause gives us another opportunity to think about a sensible part of the Bill that has a flaw.
Referral orders are an idea whose time has come. I congratulate the Government--I did not take part on Second Reading--on picking up those ideas and running with them. I went to see Charles Pollard and his practical efforts in Aylesbury before the election, and very impressive they were. I sat at the back of the room and watched a meeting at which parents, young offenders and victims were present and the whole issue was talked through. It was superbly managed by a young woman police officer. Clause 1 or the new clause would implement that. The fundamental difference between clause 1 and the new clause is that the new clause would give more flexibility. There is a case for more flexibility.
This is the point at which one becomes a little frustrated about coming in late to take part in the parliamentary minuet. The Home Secretary should have accepted the Lords amendment to introduce the word "may" instead of "shall". I apologise to him for not having heard his reasons for throwing it out.
I sit as a recorder. I listen to the gossip at lunch and go to the many training sessions that the Lord Chancellor rightly requires recorders to attend. We rightly required them to attend such sessions when we were in government. Complaints consistently come from experienced judges--Lord Justices, recorders and assistant recorders with huge experience and Crown court judges with the widest experience of all--about Parliament setting a provision in stone or steel and requiring them to operate it. They are willing and anxious to operate it, but they have to see the individual circumstances. They may say, "Look, this is basically a very good idea, but in this particular example it is damned silly and it will waste the referral committee's time."
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