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Mr. Greenway: I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman's tutorial on life on the Opposition Front Bench. We have no intention of spending anything like as long on the Opposition Benches before returning to the Benches that his party currently occupies. None the less, we are grateful for the manner in which he has responded to our arguments.
Modesty forbids my revealing the source of the phrase that he has just described as technically inaccurate and defective. However, our intention in tabling new clause 1 is to make a fundamental point, which is why I shall shortly invite the House to express its view in the Lobby. I am also grateful to my right hon. and hon. Friends who spoke in support of the general principle of flexibility.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) failed to explain the Liberal Democrats change of heart on a provision of discretion that his noble Friends in the other place thought so important as to be persuaded to vote in favour of amending a fundamental aspect of clause 1--the "shall" to "may" amendment, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire (Sir N. Lyell) referred. The Liberal Democrats in the other place supported that amendment, yet, not only did the Liberal Democrat Members in this place vote in Committee against the decision of their noble Friends, but they now speak in favour of the Government's position. We shall be fascinated to see what the right hon. Gentleman's noble Friends make of that when the Bill returns to the other place. I have an inkling that the question of discretion will come up again when, as seems certain, the other place is asked to consider whether the Government's scheme is correct.
Several of my right hon. and hon. Friends spoke in favour of the general principle of additional flexibility. I say to my right hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Brooke) that I am glad that we tabled the new clause, not least because of the amusing and enlightening contribution that it enabled him to make. My right hon. Friend, as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Daventry (Mr. Boswell) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Mr. Clappison)--who, not so long ago, moved from shadowing this Department to shadowing education and speaks from considerable experience and knowledge of the Bill--all spoke in favour of a degree of flexibility.
With no disrespect to any of my right hon. and hon. Friends, I shall, in the final analysis, rely more on the contribution of the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), who has 25 years' experience as a criminal barrister. Although he has difficulty with one or two elements of the new clause, I am sure that he will understand--as I am sure the Home Secretary does--the intricacies of ensuring that we have before us proposals that have not been debated in Committee. It is therefore in order for us to debate those proposals today, and we bore that in mind when drafting new clause 1. In Committee and in the debate today, the hon. Gentleman spoke from experience and pointed out that there is a lack of flexibility in the Bill which will lead to inconsistency, a sense of injustice and, in time, discrediting of the Government's proposals.
There was nothing in the Home Secretary's remarks that responded to the issue, which I addressed in some depth, of on-the-spot fines for young offenders. By delving into clause 8, he served only to heighten our concerns. He effectively concluded that the courts cannot be trusted, a point that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for North-East Bedfordshire made in an extremely good intervention. The more one considers the scheme, the more one sees the clear discrepancy between what would be included in a youth offender contract and
the way in which that young person would be disposed of, for the same offence, if he or she were given an on-the-spot fine or fixed penalty notice.
I find it extraordinary that, knowing that we were likely to have this debate today, the Minister of State found it timely yesterday to table the Fixed Penalty Offences Order 1999.
Mr. Greenway:
The right hon. Gentleman says, "Get off", but in no way have his remarks addressed the point that we have made throughout the debate. If a policeman decides to give a 16 or 17-year-old tearaway a fixed penalty notice, that is the end of it, but the court cannot have the same discretion. What is more, if the case ends up going to court, the same circumstances will result in a referral to a youth offender panel, where within the menu of the contract there is nothing available to the panel that is comparable to a fixed penalty notice.
The Government could, particularly in Committee, have accepted that their clause is too narrowly drawn. I thought that at the very end of his remarks, the Home Secretary almost admitted that the power that he has under clause 2--which is, in any case, incorporated into our new clause--to vary all the provisions in the light of experience means that perhaps the Government have not got this right and will have to return to it in the future.
The Government will, in any case, run into choppy waters in the other place over this issue. It is disappointing that they have not felt able at least to admit that a tiny degree of extra flexibility ought to be incorporated into the Bill. On Report, we discuss new clauses and amendments tabled by the Opposition to make a point about the Government's Bill, and those new clauses and amendments are bound, on occasion, not to have been drafted entirely correctly--but I do not believe that that should dissuade Opposition Members from pressing the point.
We invite the House to support new clause 1 in the Lobbies because we genuinely believe that the Government are making an error of judgment. When that error comes to light, we shall at least have the satisfaction of being able to point to our attitude to the Bill, and, in years to come, the opportunity in government of putting it right.
Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:--
The House divided: Ayes 118, Noes 296.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly negatived.
Amendments made: No. 2, in page 52, line 9, leave out 'sentences' and insert 'deals with'.
AYES
Amess, David
Ancram, Rt Hon Michael
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Beggs, Roy
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Body, Sir Richard
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browning, Mrs Angela
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Cash, William
Chope, Christopher
Clappison, James
Clark, Dr Michael (Rayleigh)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth
(Rushcliffe)
Collins, Tim
Colvin, Michael
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cran, James
Davis, Rt Hon David (Haltemprice)
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Duncan, Alan
Duncan Smith, Iain
Evans, Nigel
Faber, David
Flight, Howard
Forsythe, Clifford
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman
Fox, Dr Liam
Garnier, Edward
Gibb, Nick
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Heald, Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Horam, John
Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jenkin, Bernard
Key, Robert
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Leigh, Edward
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Llwyd, Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
MacGregor, Rt Hon John
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
Madel, Sir David
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
Mawhinney, Rt Hon Sir Brian
Moss, Malcolm
Norman, Archie
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Owen
Pickles, Eric
Prior, David
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
St Aubyn, Nick
Sayeed, Jonathan
Shephard, Rt Hon Mrs Gillian
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Soames, Nicholas
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spring, Richard
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Streeter, Gary
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, Rt Hon John D (Strangford)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thompson, William
Townend, John
Tredinnick, David
Trend, Michael
Trimble, Rt Hon David
Tyrie, Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Willetts, David
Wilshire, David
Woodward, Shaun
Yeo, Tim
Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Mr. Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and
Mrs. Jacqui Lait.
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard
Allen, Graham
Ashton, Joe
Atherton, Ms Candy
Austin, John
Barnes, Harry
Barron, Kevin
Beard, Nigel
Beckett, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Beith, Rt Hon A J
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Bell, Stuart (Middlesbrough)
Benn, Hilary (Leeds C)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Bennett, Andrew F
Benton, Joe
Best, Harold
Betts, Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blears, Ms Hazel
Blizzard, Bob
Blunkett, Rt Hon David
Boateng, Paul
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin)
Bradshaw, Ben
Brand, Dr Peter
Breed, Colin
Brinton, Mrs Helen
Brown, Russell (Dumfries)
Browne, Desmond
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Mrs Christine
Byers, Rt Hon Stephen
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V)
Cann, Jamie
Caplin, Ivor
Casale, Roger
Caton, Martin
Cawsey, Ian
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chisholm, Malcolm
Clapham, Michael
Clark, Rt Hon Dr David (S Shields)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Coleman, Iain
Colman, Tony
Connarty, Michael
Corbyn, Jeremy
Corston, Ms Jean
Cotter, Brian
Cousins, Jim
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Cummings, John
Cunliffe, Lawrence
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs Claire
Darvill, Keith
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Dawson, Hilton
Dean, Mrs Janet
Dismore, Andrew
Donohoe, Brian H
Dowd, Jim
Drown, Ms Julia
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth
Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fearn, Ronnie
Field, Rt Hon Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Fitzsimons, Lorna
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Rt Hon Derek
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings)
Fyfe, Maria
Galloway, George
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Godman, Dr Norman A
Goggins, Paul
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Gorrie, Donald
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Griffiths, Nigel (Edinburgh S)
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Grocott, Bruce
Grogan, John
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hancock, Mike
Heal, Mrs Sylvia
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hepburn, Stephen
Hewitt, Ms Patricia
Hinchliffe, David
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hood, Jimmy
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hoyle, Lindsay
Hughes, Ms Beverley (Stretford)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Humble, Mrs Joan
Hurst, Alan
Iddon, Dr Brian
Illsley, Eric
Ingram, Rt Hon Adam
Jackson, Ms Glenda (Hampstead)
Jackson, Helen (Hillsborough)
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Alan (Hull W & Hessle)
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Jones, Dr Lynne (Selly Oak)
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S)
Jowell, Rt Hon Ms Tessa
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Ann (Brentford & Isleworth)
Keetch, Paul
Kelly, Ms Ruth
Kemp, Fraser
Kennedy, Jane (Wavertree)
Khabra, Piara S
Kilfoyle, Peter
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Ms Oona (Bethnal Green)
Kumar, Dr Ashok
Ladyman, Dr Stephen
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Lepper, David
Leslie, Christopher
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
Lewis, Terry (Worsley)
Linton, Martin
Livingstone, Ken
Lock, David
Love, Andrew
McAvoy, Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Ms Chris
McCartney, Rt Hon Ian
(Makerfield)
McDonagh, Siobhain
Macdonald, Calum
McDonnell, John
McFall, John
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Mrs Rosemary
McNamara, Kevin
MacShane, Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
McWalter, Tony
McWilliam, John
Mahon, Mrs Alice
Mallaber, Judy
Mandelson, Rt Hon Peter
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Marsden, Paul (Shrewsbury)
Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Martlew, Eric
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Merron, Gillian
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Mitchell, Austin
Moffatt, Laura
Moran, Ms Margaret
Morgan, Ms Julie (Cardiff N)
Morris, Ms Estelle (B'ham Yardley)
Mudie, George
Mullin, Chris
Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Bill (Normanton)
O'Brien, Mike (N Warks)
O'Hara, Eddie
Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Öpik, Lembit
Organ, Mrs Diana
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Palmer, Dr Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pickthall, Colin
Pike, Peter L
Pollard, Kerry
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Pound, Stephen
Powell, Sir Raymond
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Ken
Radice, Rt Hon Giles
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Andrew (Loughborough)
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Robinson, Geoffrey (Cov'try NW)
Roche, Mrs Barbara
Rooker, Jeff
Rowlands, Ted
Roy, Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob (Colchester)
Russell, Ms Christine (Chester)
Ryan, Ms Joan
Savidge, Malcolm
Sawford, Phil
Sedgemore, Brian
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Barry
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Shipley, Ms Debra
Short, Rt Hon Clare
Singh, Marsha
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Snape, Peter
Southworth, Ms Helen
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Steinberg, Gerry
Stewart, Ian (Eccles)
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stoate, Dr Howard
Stott, Roger
Strang, Rt Hon Dr Gavin
Straw, Rt Hon Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Touhig, Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Turner, Dr Desmond (Kemptown)
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Twigg, Derek (Halton)
Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Tyler, Paul
Vis, Dr Rudi
Walley, Ms Joan
Wareing, Robert N
Watts, David
White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Wills, Michael
Winnick, David
Winterton, Ms Rosie (Doncaster C)
Wise, Audrey
Worthington, Tony
Wray, James
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Wright, Dr Tony (Cannock)
Mr. David Hanson and
Mr. Keith Hill.
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