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'(or to that offence and any other offences), the witness is eligible for assistance in relation to those proceedings by virtue of this subsection unless the witness has informed the court of the witness' wish not to be so eligible by virtue of this subsection.'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
It being five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Order [this day], put forthwith the Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that hour.
Amendment made: No. 6, in page 17, line 35, leave out 'the witness' and insert--
'(a) any cross-examination of the witness otherwise than by the accused in person, and
(b) any subsequent re-examination.'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Amendment made: No. 7, in page 18, line 27, leave out 'qualifying'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Amendment made: No. 8, in page 24, line 5, after 'disorder' insert 'or other impairment'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Amendment made: No. 9, in page 48, line 12, at end insert--
'(3) Until the day appointed under section 3 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 for the commencement of Parts II and III of that Act this section shall have effect with the substitution for subsection (1) of the following--
"(1) An Order in Council under paragraph 1(1)(b) of Schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 1974 (legislation for Northern Ireland in the interim period) which contains a statement that it is made only for purposes corresponding to the purposes of any of the relevant provisions of this Act--
(a) shall not be subject to paragraph 1(4) and (5) of that Schedule (affirmative resolution of both Houses of Parliament), but
(b) shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament."'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Amendments made: No. 10, in page 74, line 29, leave out from beginning to 'substitute' in line 30 and insert--
'22.--(1) Section 51 (intimidation etc. of witnesses, jurors and others) is amended as follows.
(2) For subsections (1) to (3) (offences of intimidating, and of doing or threatening harm to, witnesses etc.)'.
No. 11, in page 75, line 9, at end insert--
'(3) In subsection (8) (presumption in proceedings for offence under subsection (2))--
(a) for "he did or threatened to do an act falling within paragraph (a) within the relevant period" substitute "within the relevant period--
(a) he did an act which harmed, and was intended to harm, another person, or
(b) intending to cause another person fear of harm, he threatened to do an act which would harm that other person,
and that he did the act, or (as the case may be) threatened to do the act,"; and
(b) after "to have done the act" insert "or (as the case may be) threatened to do the act".'.--[Mr. Boateng.]
Order for Third Reading read.
7.40 pm
Mr. Straw: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
The Bill reflects our belief that the function of the criminal justice system goes far wider than reaching the right decision about a defendant's guilt or innocence and meteing out punishments to the guilty. Every part of that system has a role to play in reducing crime and the fear of crime. At the same time, the way in which the system deals with defendants, victims, witnesses and the wider community can help to foster a sense of a tolerant and just society, where rights and responsibilities are properly balanced.
The purpose of a trial is to reach a just conclusion on the defendant's guilt or innocence. In our jurisdiction, we use an adversarial system to achieve that aim. The Bill does not change that, but we must never forget that that system is a means to an end, not an end in itself. We should always keep open the way in which the forensic part of the system operates, aiming to improve its efficiency and effectiveness and to ensure, so far as humanly possible, not only that no innocent person is convicted, but that the guilty never go free and--it has been a defect in the system in the current century and in a good part of the previous one--that the individual victim and the community, which is always an indirect victim of crime, are given proper dignity and centrality at the heart of the criminal justice system.
Part I further takes forward our pledges to reduce youth offending. As we said in greater detail at the beginning of today's proceedings, we do not believe that the courtroom and the drama that it creates, where the young defendant is often a spectator, is conducive to a full investigation of a young person's offending--once guilt has been admitted or, indeed, determined--or to a full investigation of the crime's underlying causes, which must involve the young person and must bring in his or her parents, the victims and the wider community.
Therefore, as we have discussed at some length, the Bill separates the determination of guilt and the sentencing process in that investigation. Sentencing will be conducted by way of referral to a youth offender panel, where we will aim--the experience of Scotland has well illustrated what can happen--to achieve the investigation of the young person's offending and its underlying causes without the direct involvement of lawyers.
That is not to besmirch the reputation of a fine profession, of which the Minister of State, Home Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent, South (Mr. Boateng), the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd) and many other hon. Members, including me, are proud to be members. Indeed, on some occasions, I think that membership of the legal profession might be a prior qualification for becoming an hon. Member.
Mr. Beith:
There are too many lawyers.
Mr. Straw:
There are never too many. I am glad to underline my affection for my profession. That said, there are jobs for which lawyers are well qualified, which are to do with the law and forensic examination of guilt or innocence, and jobs for which they are not particularly qualified and for which their qualifications may not be appropriate. They arise at the point where guilt has been determined and the issue is how to get the young offender to deal with his offending behaviour. It is interesting that, in Scotland, at that point, lawyers are not involved in Scotland's youth offender panels.
Part II of the Bill recognises the fact, which we sometimes forget, that the trial process involves more people than the defendant, and that trials could not proceed without witnesses, not least witnesses forthe prosecution. However, for some witnesses the circumstances of the case, their own situation or the nature of their evidence makes the experience of giving evidence so difficult for them that their ability to provide that evidence, or their co-operation with a case, is affected. The intimidation of witnesses is a mounting problem in our society, not only in large and very serious cases, but in cases that the criminal calendar may regard as smaller cases involving relatively minor offences--which, nevertheless, are profoundly important to those who have been affected by them.
The Bill therefore provides practical measures to help such witnesses to come forward and give evidence at trial. Moreover, it implements our manifesto pledges to provide greater protection to victims in rape and sexual offence trials, and to all witnesses, whatever the nature of the trial, who are subject to intimidation. The Bill provides ways of protecting witnesses from some of the more distressing aspects of the trial process, while preserving defendants' rights.
There has been much discussion about the balance of the provisions, particularly on protections in the reporting of cases involving juvenile defendants to age 18. There has also been very considerable discussion--I have no need detain the House--[Interruption.] I am very glad to have that approbation, from whichever quarter it came: I shall ask the Whip to take his or her name.
Mr. Bob Russell:
It was the Whip.
Mr. Straw:
The Whip is a non-lawyer. There was a time when Whips on the Treasury Bench understood their duty, which was to ensure that Ministers' wishes were complied with and, in return for a healthy salary, to keep quiet at all times.
As my hon. Friend the Minister of State and I have explained, restrictions on child victims and witnesses before trial will be implemented if, after Royal Assent, we continue to be as concerned as we are about children being damaged by the nature of the reporting. However, I have good reason to hope that our concerns may well be allayed. Although we shall continue to keep the matter under review, it will, regardless, be possible to implement the restrictions only after a debate and vote in their favour in both Houses.
I am very grateful for the level of consideration that the Bill has received, both in the other place and in this House. I should also like to express my appreciation for the positive and constructive contribution made by the hon. Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway) and his colleagues, the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Llwyd), and the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith) and his colleagues.
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