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Mr. Colman: Clause 7 clearly states that there will be a full review after not more than five years, and that gives us the chance to make progress.
Mr. McDonnell: That part of the Bill is important. I have tabled a further amendment reducing that time from five years to two. I sought to embody the call for further reforms in amendments, so that the report to the Secretary of State would have to contain reference to progress on all those matters; but I was told that that was out of order and such amendments could not be tabled. It does not help to pray in aid clause 7, because it is so weak and ill defined and does not force the corporation to implement the recommendations in the statement. I understand why my hon. Friend the Member for Putney is clutching at straws. I am, too. I am trying to achieve the best possible amendment of a poor piece of legislation.
Mr. Connarty: I have some interest in the correspondence and petitions on behalf of one particular organisation. I hope that my hon. Friend will take it into account that the idea of giving the widest possible franchise is of interest to democrats regardless of whether they live in the City or in the adjacent area. Will he use more force in arguing on behalf of the democrats that if the provision that he seeks is in order it is justifiable to insert it in the Bill?
Mr. McDonnell: I accept that point and my hon. Friend's remonstration. There is an argument that we are
setting a precedent in this Bill for a widening of the franchise in particular areas. That has some advantages and some dangers and--
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman's remarks are getting increasingly general. He is to some extent going over ground that he has already trodden. The House will be well aware that he has dealt in some detail with all the amendments in the group. Perhaps he should now move on to new ground or think of concluding his remarks.
Mr. McDonnell: Can I take your advice on that matter, Mr. Deputy Speaker? Do you mean new ground in terms of arguments on this group of amendments, or moving on to new amendments?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Provided that the hon. Gentleman's remarks are specific to the amendments, I will allow him to carry on, but they are becoming increasingly general and unrelated to the amendments and, as I have already said, he has covered each amendment in great detail.
Mr. McDonnell: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam): The hon. Gentleman acknowledged that amendment No. 33 might be inadequate or slightly defective in its drafting.
Mr. McDonnell:
That is a good point, and I apologise to the City of London corporation for not having fully involved it in the discussions around the amendments. My only excuse--it is a reason as much as an excuse--is that the time scale did not permit it. The initial view that the payroll issue would not be contained in the Bill was thought by us all to be appropriate. Having tested that point late in the day because I thought it was ultra vires, I was able to draft the amendments only in the past 48 hours.
Discussion of the amendments tonight gives us the opportunity of consultation with the City corporation before the Bill goes to the other place and then comes back to us. The mind frame on the Bill was set early on by the non-advice to the Committee or it failing to seek advice on the remit of the Bill.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman clearly did not understand what I said earlier. His remarks are again general in nature and he must, if he is going to continue, confine himself to the amendments.
Mr. McDonnell:
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I was responding to an intervention. If that was inappropriate, fair enough. I will want to engage in as much consultation on the amendments as possible after they have been approved, as I hope, this evening. There is an opportunity, for example, to consult the City corporation on the detailed implementation of the amendments.
Amendment No. 33 is not adequate, but I moved it tonight to provoke debate. The issue contained in the amendment is whether the figure of £1,000 is correct. As I suggested earlier, perhaps it should be up to £1,000 for the first vote and £10,000 after that. One approach would be to make a proper analysis of the working population within the City corporation boundaries and then to work back from that, through the definition of relevant employees within individual companies, to calculate the distribution of votes in such a way that we would not introduce a system that would swamp the residential vote by employee or payroll votes. That is one way of tackling the individual problem highlighted in amendment No. 33. It would be a simple mathematical calculation and would be obtainable fairly easily from the information that we have. That is another issue for consultation with the City corporation and others. We need to engage inthat calculation in discussions with the business representatives. I mentioned the LCCI and the CBI earlier and I have welcomed their involvement throughout, as well as trade union representation.
The amendments would improve the Bill in an unexpected way and the City corporation will welcome them. It would welcome the voice of employees in its deliberations. I would certainly welcome the voice of employees in the Londonwide deliberations. There are arguments about the democratic nature of the City corporation being based solely on a business franchise.
Mr. Corbyn:
I am interested in what my hon. Friend has said about employees and residence. The City of London has many unique features, but an interesting feature that is not entirely unique is that most of its housing stock owned by local authorities is without the purview of the City of London. For example, there is a large City of London housing estate in my constituency. It is well run and I have no complaints about that, but do any of the amendments envisage a role for City of London tenants to have a say about how housing policy is managed?
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. That again is wide of the amendments before the House. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (Mr. McDonnell) ought not to respond to it.
Mr. McDonnell:
I shall therefore refer my hon. Friend to amendments that were not selected for debate.
The thrust of my arguments has been to challenge the anti-democratic nature of the Bill, and to ensure that democracy is heard in the debate. On Second Reading and elsewhere, democracy has been very narrowly defined, based on voting either by residents or by businesses. We have introduced a wider definition which, if accepted, could introduce for the first time a concept of industrial democracy. That would be based not on the power of a particular firm, but on employees having a role in their firm and in their firm's locality.
Some hon. Members will have engaged in the debate in the 1960s and 1970s, during the Bullock inquiry into industrial democracy. That debate was based on matters such as working practices, the work environment, health and safety and adequate representation. At no stage in that debate--
Mr. Peter Brooke (Cities of London and Westminster)
rose in his place and claimed to move, That the Question be now proposed.
Question put, That the Question be now proposed:-
The House divided: Ayes 199, Noes 62.
Tellers for the Ayes:
Tellers for the Noes:
Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr. Brooke:
On Second Reading, I took advice on the declaration of an interest in the Bill. I was told that I had no interest to declare, but, in order to make it clear beyond peradventure, I am content to refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members' Interests, and am happy to stand by anything that appears in that entry.
AYES
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey)
Amess, David
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale)
Arbuthnot, Rt Hon James
Atherton, Ms Candy
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham)
Bayley, Hugh
Beard, Nigel
Beresford, Sir Paul
Bermingham, Gerald
Betts, Clive
Blunt, Crispin
Body, Sir Richard
Boswell, Tim
Bottomley, Peter (Worthing W)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Mrs Virginia
Bradshaw, Ben
Brady, Graham
Brazier, Julian
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter
Browne, Desmond
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset)
Burns, Simon
Caborn, Rt Hon Richard
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth)
Campbell-Savours, Dale
Casale, Roger
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S)
Chapman, Sir Sydney
(Chipping Barnet)
Chidgey, David
Chope, Christopher
Clarke, Charles (Norwich S)
Clarke, Rt Hon Tom (Coatbridge)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey
Coaker, Vernon
Coffey, Ms Ann
Collins, Tim
Colman, Tony
Corbett, Robin
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Corston, Ms Jean
Cox, Tom
Cunningham, Jim (Cov'try S)
Darling, Rt Hon Alistair
Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Davidson, Ian
Davies, Quentin (Grantham)
Day, Stephen
Dewar, Rt Hon Donald
Donohoe, Brian H
Dorrell, Rt Hon Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Drown, Ms Julia
Ellman, Mrs Louise
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Michael
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flight, Howard
Forth, Rt Hon Eric
Fox, Dr Liam
Fraser, Christopher
Gale, Roger
Garnier, Edward
George, Bruce (Walsall S)
Gill, Christopher
Gillan, Mrs Cheryl
Gilroy, Mrs Linda
Gorman, Mrs Teresa
Gorrie, Donald
Gray, James
Green, Damian
Greenway, John
Grieve, Dominic
Grocott, Bruce
Gunnell, John
Hague, Rt Hon William
Hain, Peter
Hamilton, Rt Hon Sir Archie
Hammond, Philip
Hancock, Mike
Hanson, David
Harris, Dr Evan
Heathcoat-Amory, Rt Hon David
Hepburn, Stephen
Heppell, John
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Hill, Keith
Hodge, Ms Margaret
Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas
Howarth, George (Knowsley N)
Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Howells, Dr Kim
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N)
Hunter, Andrew
Hutton, John
Jack, Rt Hon Michael
Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Jamieson, David
Jenkin, Bernard
Jenkins, Brian
Johnson, Miss Melanie
(Welwyn Hatfield)
Jones, Rt Hon Barry (Alyn)
Jones, Mrs Fiona (Newark)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Khabra, Piara S
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
King, Rt Hon Tom (Bridgwater)
Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Lansley, Andrew
Lawrence, Ms Jackie
Laxton, Bob
Letwin, Oliver
Lewis, Dr Julian (New Forest E)
Lidington, David
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter
Lloyd, Rt Hon Sir Peter (Fareham)
Loughton, Tim
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas
McIntosh, Miss Anne
Maclean, Rt Hon David
McLoughlin, Patrick
McNulty, Tony
Maples, John
Mates, Michael
Maude, Rt Hon Francis
May, Mrs Theresa
Meacher, Rt Hon Michael
Meale, Alan
Michael, Rt Hon Alun
Milburn, Rt Hon Alan
Moonie, Dr Lewis
Moss, Malcolm
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Nicholls, Patrick
Norman, Archie
O'Hara, Eddie
Olner, Bill
Osborne, Ms Sandra
Ottaway, Richard
Page, Richard
Paice, James
Pickles, Eric
Pickthall, Colin
Pond, Chris
Pope, Greg
Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Prior, David
Randall, John
Raynsford, Nick
Reid, Rt Hon Dr John (Hamilton N)
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Rt Hon George
(Hamilton S)
Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Rooney, Terry
Roy, Frank
Ruffley, David
St Aubyn, Nick
Sarwar, Mohammad
Simpson, Keith (Mid-Norfolk)
Smith, Miss Geraldine
(Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Southworth, Ms Helen
Spellar, John
Spelman, Mrs Caroline
Squire, Ms Rachel
Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Starkey, Dr Phyllis
Stoate, Dr Howard
Streeter, Gary
Sutcliffe, Gerry
Swayne, Desmond
Syms, Robert
Taylor, Rt Hon Mrs Ann
(Dewsbury)
Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton S)
Taylor, Ian (Esher & Walton)
Taylor, John M (Solihull)
Taylor, Sir Teddy
Thomas, Gareth R (Harrow W)
Timms, Stephen
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr George (NW Norfolk)
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr Rudi
Wardle, Charles
Waterson, Nigel
Wells, Bowen
Whittingdale, John
Widdecombe, Rt Hon Miss Ann
Wilkinson, John
Williams, Rt Hon Alan
(Swansea W)
Williams, Alan W (E Carmarthen)
Wilshire, David
Wilson, Brian
Winterton, Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Woodward, Shaun
Wyatt, Derek
Mr. Robert Walter and
Mr. Nick Hawkins.
NOES
Adams, Mrs Irene (Paisley N)
Ashton, Joe
Atkins, Charlotte
Barnes, Harry
Bell, Martin (Tatton)
Benn, Rt Hon Tony (Chesterfield)
Burstow, Paul
Butler, Mrs Christine
Campbell, Rt Hon Menzies
(NE Fife)
Cann, Jamie
Chaytor, David
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Coleman, Iain
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Dalyell, Tam
Davis, Terry (B'ham Hodge H)
Dawson, Hilton
Dismore, Andrew
Etherington, Bill
Fearn, Ronnie
George, Andrew (St Ives)
Gerrard, Neil
Gibson, Dr Ian
Godman, Dr Norman A
Gordon, Mrs Eileen
Heath, David (Somerton & Frome)
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Hinchliffe, David
Hood, Jimmy
Hopkins, Kelvin
Hurst, Alan
Iddon, Dr Brian
Jones, Ms Jenny
(Wolverh'ton SW)
Keetch, Paul
Kidney, David
King, Andy (Rugby & Kenilworth)
Livsey, Richard
McDonnell, John
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Michie, Bill (Shef'ld Heeley)
Palmer, Dr Nick
Perham, Ms Linda
Pike, Peter L
Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Rapson, Syd
Sanders, Adrian
Sawford, Phil
Shaw, Jonathan
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
Skinner, Dennis
Smith, Angela (Basildon)
Smith, Sir Robert (W Ab'd'ns)
Steinberg, Gerry
Stinchcombe, Paul
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Tonge, Dr Jenny
Wise, Audrey
Wood, Mike
Wright, Anthony D (Gt Yarmouth)
Mr. Andrew Mackinlay and
Mr. Michael Connarty.
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