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Mr. Gray: My hon. Friend will recall that, although he was strongly of the view that it was important to examine the paper on a Strategic Rail Authority and come to a unanimous conclusion on it, certain of his colleagueson the Conservative Benches in the Transport Sub- Committee, me in particular, took a different view.
Mr. Pickles: That is true, but it did not affect how my hon. Friend voted.
Although the report was a consensus report, it was some distance away from some of the recommendations. I agree that the Government should introduce pre-legislative reviews, and I certainly believe that the Select Committee forum is the right place to do that. This is exactly the kind of Bill that will benefit from pre-legislative scrutiny. I have seen examples of such scrutiny on the Select Committee on Social Security. However--this is why our reasoned amendment is so
important--we should have had the benefit of the Select Committee's views before Second Reading because, without them, this debate is taking place in a vacuum. As we shall have no opportunity to hear the Select Committee's views until the Committee stage, a substantial number of hon. Members will be denied the opportunity of dealing with the Select Committee's recommendations.
I cannot understand why this Bill has been introduced at the fag-end of a parliamentary Session. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr. Redwood) is right: it is probably because the Government are seeking to gloss over the problems between the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister. It has not been lost on many hon. Members that the delays in introducing this Bill have been greater than those in the services of the late lamented British Rail. Like a British Rail sandwich, the Bill is beginning to curl at the edges.
Mr. Gerald Howarth:
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Given that he is in favour of pre-legislative scrutiny--perhaps we should call it "mid-legislative scrutiny"--how long does he think the Select Committee will take to consider the matter? As the Bill has been introduced at the fag-end of a parliamentary Session, we could be looking at the fag-end of the next Session before we get round to considering the detailed legislation.
Mr. Pickles:
What my hon. Friend says about mid-legislative scrutiny is exactly right. We have been down this path before: we have seen the Government set up a consultation process before introducing a Bill, but then start to panic and introduce the Bill halfway through the consultation period. Just a few weeks ago, the House had before it a number of Bills for which the end of the consultation period was several months hence. Those Bills have now gone to another place and we must wait until they come back before we have an opportunity to discuss them.
The Transport Sub-Committee took a lot of hearings on this Bill and I am sure that we shall want to listen widely to consumer groups, public transport organisations, Railtrack and the various companies. I cannot see how the Committee could get through that work in fewer than 12 to 15 evidence sessions. Unless it is to meet through the long recess, it will have to deliberate well into the spring. My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot (Mr. Howarth), who is an experienced Member, is right--it will take some time. My colleagues on the Opposition Front Bench have made the characteristically generous offer of a Standing Committee, to sit until the Bill is fully considered.
Mr. Gray:
My hon. Friend obviously has not caught sight of motion 3 on the Order Paper, entitled "Business of the House (Railways Bill)", which stipulates that the Select Committee will report by 12 November 1999. Does he agree that that is a woefully inadequate time to consider this complicated Bill?
Mr. Pickles:
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am extremely happy to agree with him on this intervention.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aldershot asked how long it would take the Select Committee to consider the Bill. It will take 15 sittings. Assuming that the House returns on 19 October, there will no hope of reporting by that date--unless the work is rushed through in two or three evidence sessions. However, I do not believe that that will happen. I have a great regard for the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mrs. Dunwoody), and I cannot see her standing for the suggestion that there should be a quick and cheap review. This is an important Bill; it contains many clauses, many of which are, admittedly, wide in their scope, not to mention many schedules. Fifteen evidence sessions would therefore be about right.
Mr. Howarth:
I am sorry to pursue this matter, but it is rather important. If my hon. Friend is right to suggest that there will be 15 evidence sessions, the Select Committee will not reach a conclusion on the matter this side of next Easter. The revisions proposed by the Committee would, therefore, come before the House a year hence. They may then be delayed in this House for some other reason, and would not get to the other place until next autumn. Given that the Deputy Prime Minister thinks that this Bill is important, why is this procedure being used?
Mr. Pickles:
I am at a loss to explain that--I am as mystified as my hon. Friend. Perhaps the Minister for Transport--we look forward to her reply to the debate--will tackle that point because it is a worry. It is happening as we speak: messages are going out from the Dispatch Box to find out exactly what the result is, but I have the following concern. I suspect that we will not wait until Easter. Scrutiny will be rushed again, and we will have pre-legislative scrutiny in name only.
Mr. Nick St. Aubyn (Guildford):
Will my hon. Friend contrast the treatment that has been proposed for the Railways Bill with that of the Financial Services and Markets Bill, for which there was an extensive period of consideration by a Standing Committee? It went through that only after First Reading, which meant that, before the new Bill was introduced, there could be substantial changes to the legislation to take account of the representations. How can the Government credibly come back after Second Reading and also after the long period of consultation that will be required?
Mr. Pickles:
My hon. Friend is right. There are detailed questions to be addressed on the Financial Services and Markets Bill. People want to hear from experts. They want to consider what the various professions that deal with financial services are saying. Matters relating to the railways are no less technical, or daunting, than those relating to financial services, so we should be receiving the views of the Select Committee now. Of course, we will not have that opportunity; the Bill will be considered in Committee later.
We may have an opportunity by the time Third Reading comes around to make suggestions, but by that time, the Bill will be set in concrete. It will be difficult to change much of its central thrust. I find it a little strange that those who sit in another place will be in a stronger position than the House of Commons to determine the
strength of the Bill, because they will have had the benefit of the Select Committee's examination of the various matters at stake.
We have had a number of interesting speeches. Three in particular have demonstrated the problem that we face. The more strategic the rail authority is, the better chance it has of success, but the more we debate it, the more Members and the Strategic Rail Authority will get themselves involved in detail.
The speech of the hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich demonstrated that most clearly. She talked about the relationship of the shareholders, the responsibility of the company to make profits and to plough those profits back into dividends--contrasting with their public duty--and the Strategic Rail Authority interfering in commercial considerations with regard to the running of those businesses. If that happens, we will return to the problem of the dead hand of the old British Railways Board.
Mr. Quinn:
Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Pickles:
I give way to the hon. Member who mentioned the light at the end of the tunnel.
Mr. Quinn:
As someone who has been in that tunnel and knows the difference between daylight and a train, I can tell you that it is daylight that I was referring to. You rightly refer to--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. The hon. Gentleman must use the correct parliamentary language.
The hon. Gentleman rightly referred to the historical situation. I am sure that he recalls his leadership of Bradford borough council and his work, along with councillors in Leeds and other west Yorkshire councils, to introduce the West Riding electrification scheme, which benefits many commuters in that conurbation. Will he consider how much easier that process would have been if there had been a Strategic Rail Authority to work in partnership with those councils, rather than the situation that he alludes to? Is not that what the railway industry has needed--that strategic overview and interlinking with the other transport systems? I commend him for his work during that period.
Mr. Pickles:
I am blushing: I am most grateful for the hon. Gentleman's comments. He is right to say that electrification of the line was important for economic development; but with regard to land development, I would talk to Railtrack, so it would not present a problem under the current situation.
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