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Mr. Khabra: Will my hon. Friend give way, please?
Lorna Fitzsimons: No. I want to make progress.
I understand the Indian Government's concerns about Amnesty International, which previously commented only on state-sponsored abuses of human rights. Now, as can be seen from Amnesty's latest report that was made available on the internet in February, it also comments--and investigates as far as it can without being allowed access--on abuses of human rights by terror organisations, the occurrence of which we must all acknowledge.
The Kashmiri people whom I represent hate the cause of Kashmiri liberation being hijacked by other organisations. Taking up the gun and using the bullet does no one any favours. The Kashmiri people have no chance of democratic choice and self-determination unless they have human rights.
I am not speaking of access to health care and education. Forget that. I am speaking about the fact that women and children are paying the price. People mysteriously disappear or are held in detention. There is ample evidence from Amnesty and the Indian Government in reports to Congress by successive Ministers that people are detained under defunct anti-terrorism legislation. All over the world, the people who pay the price are the most vulnerable in society. If the main breadwinner disappears, who will support the women and children, if there is no active welfare state?
As people who believe in human rights and as internationalists, we have to join together to say that India should allow the international community into Indian- controlled Jammu and Kashmir if it believes that people are being made destitute because of the actions of terror organisations. Independent evidence could therefore be gathered and people could make a judgment. When Back Benchers or delegations meet the Indian Government, they make the point that Pakistan is involved in funding and promoting terror incursions across the border. There is clearly enough room for believing that the Government of Pakistan are in some way involved in those incursions; indeed, it would be very difficult to say that they are not involved. However, proof is required. India uses the alleged incursions and the funding or promotion of such activities by freelance terror organisations--
Mr. Stephen Pound (Ealing, North)
rose--
Mr. Tony Baldry (Banbury)
rose--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. Interventions from the Opposition Front Bench are not allowed in Adjournment debates.
Lorna Fitzsimons:
I give way to my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, North (Mr. Pound).
Mr. Pound:
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Like every Member of the House, I respect her reputation for representing the best interests of her constituents and the even-handed way in which she has approached this matter, but she used the expression "alleged incursions". Does she not agree that there was a military incursion? Will she condemn it, regardless of who financed or initiated it?
Lorna Fitzsimons:
I condemn any overt military activity taken against a peace-loving people, wherever it comes from. That goes for India's overt military action and the unwelcome terror activities undertaken by some of the organisations that allegedly support the Kashmiri cause. I represent wholly non-violent people who want to use the ballot box to achieve self-determination.
Mr. Khabra:
Will my hon. Friend give way?
People should be allowed to achieve self-determination through the ballot box and that can be achieved only when their human rights are established. For example, the United Nations does not want free and fair elections to be held in East Timor until stability has been achieved and until it has been proven that there will be no intimidation from any force. The same must happen in Kashmir. We cannot expect people to participate in a democracy when they are being subjected to bullying, which is the weakest phrase that I can use, or to terrorism, which is the stronger expression used in the Amnesty International report, in order to deny them their free will. Such action must be condemned, wherever it comes from.
Mr. Mohammad Sarwar (Glasgow, Govan):
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way. Does she agree that, to end the tensions between India and Pakistan and to bring peace and stability to the region, it is absolutely essential that the dispute over Kashmir is resolved according to the UN resolution and the wishes of the Kashmiri people? Does she further agree that the representatives of the Kashmiri people should be involved in any future talks or negotiations?
Lorna Fitzsimons:
Yes. The bottom line is that the Kashmiri people have been wronged. It cannot be argued that other princely states did not play a role in deciding their own destinies when disputes arose and, as was recognised as far back as 1949, the people of Jammu and Kashmir must be allowed to play such a role.
We must recognise that some of our compatriots, who want an independent state to be established, think that the UN resolution has shortcomings. It is not up to me to determine whether independence or accession to India or to Pakistan is the issue, but we have to be honest with the Kashmiri people we represent and say to them that that is not part of the UN resolution. I believe, however, that any vote that allowed the Kashmiri people to express a view, whether on accession to India or on accession to Pakistan, would be a step forward. Hon. Members will be able to understand these concerns, especially as there have been several rounds of bilateral talks between India and Pakistan over 50 years. The Kashmiri people themselves are at the bottom of the list, however, and the dispute is treated as territorial rather than as something that affects real people.
We must acknowledge in the debate that real people are paying the price for the dispute and scaling down the military presence must be the priority. If Pakistan is perpetrating or encouraging incursions and acts of terror as has been alleged, it must desist because the Indian Government are using those incursions as a fig leaf. By the same token, the Indian Government have to accept that having such an overt military presence has not worked; they have not calmed or charmed the Kashmiri people and implementation of the UN resolution is the only measure that would allow the Kashmiri people some peace of mind.
There has been a breakdown in trust because of the recent Kargil incidents, so we have to welcome the moves made by Nawaz Sharif, who visited the United States to hold talks with Bill Clinton, to try to calm the situation. We have to ask India to say that it is in nobody's interest to continue the stand-off: it has reclaimed Kargil and Nawaz Sharif has used his power and influence to make sure that the forces in Kargil retreated. We must ensure that the Lahore agreement, and every agreement that has been made since the original UN resolution was passed, is implemented.
It is right to pay tribute to the late Derek Fatchett and I welcome his successor, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, Central (Mr. Benn), to the debate. I know that, like Derek, he will take a lot of interest in Kashmir. We talked to Derek about the possibility of confidence-building measures being introduced to increase trust and deal with issues that affect the Administrations in both parts of the former princely state, which is split down the middle. We should try to achieve some movement--for example, dialogue between the representative groups in both parts of Kashmir. Nothing in the UN resolution or the 1972 accord says that the people could not and should not be allowed to cross the line freely.
Mr. Hilary Benn (Leeds, Central):
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Does she accept that this country's experience in Northern Ireland has taught us that recognition by sovereign states that such a problem is not merely a little local difficulty in part of their own country, but a bigger question, is one of the great steps that must be taken to achieve progress? When countries can accept that, the dialogue that needs to take place between two sovereign states in order to resolve a conflict is that much more likely to happen.
Lorna Fitzsimons:
Absolutely. We could push for dialogue between the representative groups, including people who have been elected, so that they could discuss whether a joint agreement could be reached between them all. The Hurriat conference is an example of that. Lord Avebury has tried to organise conferences to facilitate some dialogue between the different representative Kashmiri organisations, and Derek Fatchett made similar efforts. We must keep trying even though we have not been successful so far--primarily because a lot of leaders in Indian-controlled Kashmir were not allowed visas to travel to the conference venues. We have to allow that dialogue to happen and we have to ask for the recommendations made by Amnesty International in its most recent report to be taken up.
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