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Mr. Hawkins: Does my hon. Friend agree that the issue arises of the parallel to which the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) adverted? The irony is that the Minister is constrained by the same concerns that we are all expressing about the criminal defence service. As the right hon. Gentleman said, someone who speaks on behalf of the state is constrained because he is unable to depart from his brief. He is instructed to resist, and not to take account of the arguments that the right hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend are making.
Mr. Grieve: My hon. Friend makes a telling point. Having recently been appointed to the Front Bench of my party on a matter unrelated to this one, on which I continue to speech as a Back Bencher, I am fully aware as a parliamentarian of how one's independence of judgment is inevitably fettered, and perhaps properly so, by the calls of loyalty and discipline in the party structure. I am sure that the Minister suffers that fate every day of the week. That is precisely the point. That may be appropriate in this forum, but the person who is appointed to represent an accused person who is being dragged through the criminal justice system should not be placed under such constraints. I do not see how he can escape being under such constraints if there is a public defender system, as is envisaged.
The Minister says that other countries have adopted such systems, and that the world has not come to an end. Indeed, it has been suggested in the other place that they work quite well. As a lawyer practising in this country, but with plenty of international contacts--especially on the continent of Europe--I can only say that I have not heard it suggested that the independence of our defence system is something about which we ought to be concerned. Indeed, it is repeatedly held up as a model of its kind.
We have debated this matter at great length, and I do not wish to take up too much of the House's time. We have debated it on Second Reading, in Committee and on Report. Perhaps the Minister should note this, however. A number of amendments that the Government did not like were tabled in the other place when the Bill began its progress. Independent-minded Members of the other place, while accepting a good many Government amendments, concentrated their fire on certain key issues. The Government would do well to consider those issues carefully, because they go to the heart of the independence of the criminal justice system--and, indeed, the assurance that must be given to those accused of crimes that they will be treated fairly.
This measure smacks of unfairness. As such, it is a retrograde step, and I do not understand the justification for it. I wish that the Minister would think again.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I am happy to call the Minister, if he is winding up the debate, but I think that the Opposition spokesman wants to speak first.
Mr. Hawkins:
Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
I think--especially as the Minister invited me to expand on some of the concerns that were being expressed--that I should return to some of what was said about this part of the Bill on Second Reading. At that time, I expressed such concerns from the Back Benches, but it should be remembered that they were expressed by hon. Members on both sides of the House, as they have been again today.
The Government suggest that the Bill will improve access to justice, but Members on both sides of both Houses have voiced the fear that it will achieve the precise opposite. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) was right to quote the character in "Alice" who said, "A word means what I want it to mean", and to say that the Bill uses the language of George Orwell--newspeak. As in so many other areas of their policy, the Government believe that it is enough to cause a title to be chosen for a Bill that sounds wonderful--that sounds as if the Bill is helping people. That reminds me of an exchange between Sir Humphrey and the Minister in "Yes Minister". Sir Humphrey says, "Always deal with the most difficult bit in the title, Minister." That is clearly the lesson that the Lord Chancellor wished to convey in his choice of title for this Bill.
As has been pointed out yet again today by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough, my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve), the hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) and the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), the Bill will result in a denial of access to justice. Neither my right hon. and hon. Friends nor I accept that the Bill will enable a criminal defence service properly to represent defendants involved in particularly difficult cases--cases involving allegations of miscarriages of justice or malpractice on the part of police officers, or involving specialised questions concerning mental health law.
It would not be enough for Opposition Members in the House of Commons, whether Liberal Democrats or Conservatives, to express such concerns. The Minister and the Lord Chancellor must take account of the fact that far more distinguished lawyers than us on the Government Benches in another place--distinguished barristers such as Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws--have expressed precisely the same concerns, in extremely strong terms. Let me again quote what Lady Kennedy said in the first debate in another place. I quoted it when I spoke from the Back Benches on the Bill. She said:
As was said by Lord Thomas of Gresford in the most recent debate in another place, speaking for the Liberal Democrats, it is essential to recognise the dangers in what the Government propose, notwithstanding the canards of the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr. Dismore) about protectionism on the part of the Bar. As my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Harborough pointed out, those who consult the voting list will see that, when these proposals were defeated in another place by a large majority--no less than 141 to 85--most of those who voted were life peers and non-lawyers.
The present Government are committed to the politics of envy, and to the abolition of the voting rights of hereditary peers; but they still want a Chamber containing life peers. The Minister said earlier, "We believe in a revising Chamber", but he does not want that really. We are back to "Alice": the Government want a revising Chamber only when it does not seek to revise. What they really want is a poodle--or perhaps, in this instance, Derry's dachshund. What they really want is a revising Chamber that never defeats the Government: a Chamber that says, "We may have concerns, but we will let this go through on the nod. We have faith."
It is clear that the other place as currently constituted is wiser than that. It wishes to behave as a real revising Chamber. When it sees the Government introducing legislation that will clearly not be advantageous to the public, it wishes to say so. Members on both sides of both Houses are determined to demonstrate to the Government that this is an unhelpful and damaging proposal.
If the Government, the Lord Chancellor and the Minister really know in their heart of hearts that the Bill will not increase access to justice, and that it is damaging, what is it really all about? The hon. Member for Hendon asked, "Where is the beef?" The beef is here: we know that the Lord Chancellor is presenting proposals in government that he specifically criticised in opposition. As I pointed out on Second Reading, the Lord Chancellor--then shadow Lord Chancellor--made a speech criticising proposals of this kind. He has gone back on that now, because he is constrained by Her Majesty's Treasury. He believes that this is a cost-saving measure. I believe that, in practice, the criminal defence service will not achieve even that, and I share all the concerns that have been expressed. The right hon. Member for Llanelli nods.
"I know that our Lord Chancellor is committed to human rights . . . But might he also be creating another legacy--the introduction of a system which can only disadvantage the many, particularly the poor?"--[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 December 1998; Vol. 595, c. 1158.]
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I urge the Minister and his right hon. and noble Friend to think again. Surely, when as distinguished a human rights lawyer as Lady Kennedy, with an impeccable pedigree in the field, says that the system can only disadvantage the many, particularly the poor, that is the worst criticism that anyone could make of a Government whom the Prime Minister claims--so often that it has almost become a cliche--to be a Government of the many, not the few. Lady Kennedy has said that the Bill will disadvantage the many, particularly the poor, and I feel that no stronger condemnation could be expressed.
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