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5.30 pm
Mr. Vaz: This has been an interesting debate, not least because of the fact that there is a bit of confusion as to who is the spokesperson for the Opposition. It seems that the hon. Member for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) has been shoved aside and we have the return of the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier), who was very keen to criticise and to pepper his arguments with personal abuse.
The hon. and learned Gentleman referred to me reading out the civil service brief. Some people will never in their careers have the opportunity to be able to do that. They will spend their lives wandering around Market Harborough bitterly, trying to be recognised by their constituents. The hon. and learned Gentleman described himself as a pompous barrister. The cheers from Labour Members and, indeed, some Opposition Members demonstrate the fact that most people would agree with that description. I say nothing more about it.
In Edinburgh, the Lord Chancellor made an excellent speech, which the hon. and learned Member for Harborough has endorsed. The point that the Lord Chancellor made, although it was lost on the hon. and learned Gentleman, was that judges receive their salary from the state, as will those in the salaried criminal defence service. There is no question of judges' independence or integrity being compromised in their work, a point that was correctly raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies), who stated that state-funded services had a fundamental role in our the legal system. We cannot have those services without state funding. They exist and are there to be used.
Mr. Burnett:
I hope that the Minister will deal with the argument that was advanced by the right hon. Member for Llanelli (Mr. Davies) about the huge panoply of the state apparatus: it consists of not only the judiciary and prosecution, but now the defence. Will he deal with that argument?
Mr. Vaz:
I hope that I will deal with it briefly, but, as the hon. Gentleman has said, we have discussed the matter on several occasions on Second Reading, in Committee, in the other place and again today. The position has not changed. The state is involved in the provision of legal services. The hon. Gentleman made a very half-hearted
There is no question that the independence of the prosecutor and those who conduct the defence will be compromised. The view that they will both sit in the same room and collude with each other about the outcome of cases is absolute nonsense. For a start, they are responsible to different Departments of State; the Legal Services Commission is indirectly responsible to the Department because, as the hon. Gentleman knows, it is an independent body--it is independent of the Lord Chancellor's Department. The Attorney-General is accountable in Parliament for what the Crown Prosecution Service does.
There is no question of collusion. We would like salaried defenders to be in exactly the same position as prosecutors--the hon. Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) described them as fearless champions ensuring that prosecutions are conducted appropriately. That is exactly what we want in relation to salaried defenders.
The hon. and learned Member for Harborough mentioned international research. Was he listening to my speech? Are we taking part in the same debate? Does he understand what we are saying? International research shows that mixed systems can be the best and most cost-effective way in which to provide criminal defence services. I listed in my speech the various research studies in America and Australia, and pointed out that the way forward was to look at a mixed system, which will provide not only better value for money, but better legal services.
As I have said, we intend to consult widely on our proposals, and we intend to have a pilot scheme. I raised the example of what is happening in Scotland. That shows that people wish to use the system that is being developed there, but it is right and proper that we should have a system that best meets the needs of this country's legal system. That is why the pilots are being initiated.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli has nothing to fear from the proposals because, as he said, the state pays for defence work at the moment. It pays private sector lawyers for each case in which they act. In future, most defence work will be provided by private sector lawyers who are paid under contract. Therefore, there is no question of the system changing fundamentally. We hope to provide choice for people, enabling them to get the best possible advice, assistance and representation that they can. That is all that the system aims to do.
The hon. Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Burnett) asked several questions about timing, information and the like. As I and the Lord Chancellor have said, regulations will cover exactly those points. Before we have those regulations, we will consult and ensure that the system actually works. Services that need to be provided will be provided. Of course, it depends on when the person enters the system. When that person enters the system, he or she will be provided with the full list of firms and any salaried defenders who may be available to do the work.
As the House knows, I worked in a law centre. People came there to ask for assistance on such work--state-funded work--because they had confidence in the
lawyers who were doing the work. The lawyers who will work in the criminal defence service will be of the highest quality. They will be specialists.
The hon. and learned Member for Harborough has, in a veiled way, advertised his work as a libel barrister--I know whom to go to if I am ever defamed: it will not be to him. Of course we want the best possible advocates; that is what we want for the system. It is not true that, because it is a state-funded system with salaried defenders, defenders will be of an inferior class or type. We want the best, in the same way as the Director of Public Prosecutions in the Crown Prosecution Service chooses the best possible people to prosecute.
Those are the arguments; those are the facts. They have not changed since the previous time we discussed the matter in the House. It is clear that the House has expressed its view, and that the other place has made its decisions on the basis of the vested interests involved. Opposition Members should not try to cover up who was behind the moves in the other place. It was a blatant case of those with vested interests attempting to overturn the views of the House. We will not permit that.
I know that the hon. Member for Beaconsfield is the son of a recorder and practising barrister, but he wanders in in the middle of the debate and starts to intervene--[Interruption.] Yes, he did. These are serious issues. He should have been here at the start of the debate if he felt so strongly about them.
What we propose is the best system. It is a good system and it will work.
Question put, That this House does not insist on Commons amendments Nos. 27 to 30:--
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