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Mr. Baldry: My hon. Friend is talking about benefit to the profession and citizens, but the concession can be of no benefit to anyone unless it is promulgated. As he says, for a very long time, those concerned by such landlord-tenant matters have not had access to legal aid and have not therefore tended to go to solicitors.
They have tended to have recourse to citizens advice bureaux or similar legal rights centres. Does my hon. Friend agree that if this and other reforms are to work, it is vital that the Government properly publicly promulgate them in a widespread publicity campaign?
Mr. Malins: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The problem with our debates is that so many people outside the House do not hear the results of them. Following his suggestion, I strongly urge the Government to adopt the very sensible policy of ensuring that a summary of this debate, the point that has emerged from it and the decisions that we have reached is circulated to all bodies that need to know. That includes the Law Society, the Bar, firms of solicitors and every housing body that has anything to do with helping tenants.
Many of us in the House have regretted over many years the fact that tenants have been disadvantaged under the Environmental Protection Act through not being able to receive legal aid. It is all very well to get an hour's legal advice under the green form, but the ability to go to court to enforce one's remedy, often against a landlord who is a nasty piece of work, is very important. I therefore join those who have welcomed the progress.
Labour Members will say that I have spoken for too long, and they may be right. However, I must conclude with the observation that, as a practising solicitor, I found it very sad that so many people with a remedy could not have it enforced. Following the pressure from my hon. Friend the Member for Surrey Heath and Shelter, the Government have reached a view on the Lords amendment that is in accordance with very good sense. I very much hope that they will lose no opportunity in ensuring that news of what we have all decided is spread widely throughout the legal world and the world of practitioners.
Lords amendment to Commons amendment No. 56 disagreed to.
Government amendment (a) in lieu thereof agreed to.
Lords amendments considered.
Lords amendments Nos. 1, 2 to 6, 7, 21, 23, 28 to 31, 319 and 330 agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.--[Mr. Battle.]
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to discuss Lords amendments Nos. 9 to 14.
Mrs. Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton):
I rise to probe the Government. The Bill, as amended in another place, clearly defines that the person who will accompany a worker when he or she is in dispute and invited to attend a disciplinary or grievance hearing must be an official of a trade union whom the union has reasonably certified in writing to have experience of, or received training in, acting as a worker's companion in such hearings.
The fact that someone has a right to be accompanied and may wish to be so accompanied is not in dispute. However, it would be helpful to know exactly what the Government mean by "reasonably certified". Who will be the arbiter of that certification or the qualification of the person accompanying the worker as having received training?
As the Minister will know, concern has been expressed in both this House and another place specifically on the right of a worker to choose. Will the Minister clarify whether the trade union official will be from the worker's trade union or from a trade union from the worker's workplace or company? It is important that the worker should have confidence in the official who accompanies him or her, not only because the official may give technical or even legal advice, but because the official must be in a position to give the worker the moral support that is clearly desired. The worker must therefore have confidence in the relationship.
Mr. Tim Collins (Westmorland and Lonsdale):
Does my hon. Friend agree that it would be helpful if the Minister clarified in what, if any, circumstances the provision of a certificate from a trade union stating that an official had met the required standards could be withdrawn? It would be very damaging if, having once been certified, someone was decertified for such purposes because the trade union felt that that person was not the right official to represent someone. As she rightly says, the individual should have as wide a choice of officials as possible. We need to know whether a certificate may be withdrawn. Preferably, that should not be possible.
Mrs. Browning:
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point.
Mr. Collins:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for asking many of the questions that I would otherwise have asked the Minister. I have one more question to ask in addition to that which I posed in my earlier intervention.
If the amendment is accepted and if the Bill is enacted, how will a trade union be defined? Hon. Members will be aware--and you will be aware, Mr. Deputy Speaker--of the circumstances in which unions can, from time to time, fragment. We remember the Union of Democratic Mineworkers coming out of the National Union of Mineworkers 10 or 15 years ago. How is a union to be defined for these purposes? Who are the officials defined to be acting on behalf of that union? How is the process of change, as one union merges into another or splits away from a union, to be managed for the purposes of ensuring that courts can easily interpret this legislation, should it reach the statute book? I should be grateful if the Minister would address those points in his reply.
The Minister for Energy and Industry (Mr. John Battle):
I understand that the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) intends to probe, not resist, the amendments that the Government have made. That is welcome.
Amendment No. 8 is a straightforward grammatical amendment, avoiding unnecessary repetition. Similarly, amendments Nos. 12 and 13 correct a minor inconsistency.
The substance of amendments Nos. 9 and 10, to which the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton addresses herself, concerns the list of persons who may be an accompanying person. Hon. Members will be aware that the subject was much discussed in the House and in the other place, and I think that it is fair to say, and widely known, that the Government resisted attempts to minimise the scope for people who are not fellow workers to act as that accompanying person. As the hon. Lady says, it is important that the individual has confidence in the person who stands with them, as it were. The Government resisted attempts to minimise the scope for two reasons. First, if we had not done so, the right would have been cast too narrowly and, secondly, it might well have excluded some of the most appropriate and effective individuals--experienced trade unionists who are highly qualified, skilled and trained--from performing a standard function of a trade union. I am grateful for the support given to the Government in the other place on this point during consideration of this part of the right.
I know that that consensus was evolving around our position and I pay tribute to the supportive remarks that were made in the other place about the wealth of expertise and experience that full-time and lay officials of trade unions can bring to bear during disciplinary and grievance proceedings. I believe that there is a good degree of consensus of support for that expertise.
However, we noted the concerns of those who believe that it might prove unhelpful or disruptive to allow inexperienced outsiders to participate in internal procedures. As a result, we redrew the list of people who may act as an accompanying person, with a view to ensuring that only those who are suitably qualified for the task will be entitled to act as the accompanying person. I should point out that the right for a fellow worker to act as a companion remains as it is. Indeed, in many cases, the fellow worker will also be the local union representative, so the changes really relate to the outsiders who can attend the hearing.
Mr. David Chidgey (Eastleigh):
I wish to clarify a point. The answer may be in another part of the Bill, which I have missed. Amendment No. 9 specifically says that the official is "employed" by a trade union. A few moments ago, the Minister said that the official could be employed part-time or full-time. But is there meant to be, or is there, a distinction between an official who is a paid employee and an official who is merely appointed as a representative?
Lords amendment: No. 8, in page 5, line 5, leave out ("the worker")
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