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Mr. Battle: The traditional definition of the difference between a lay representative and a trade union official is written into trade union law. The condition is that lay officials must be reasonably certified, in writing, by their union as having had experience of acting as an accompanying person or as having received training in performing that role.
The amendment does allow for certification to be withdrawn. Just as certification must be given in the first instance, to ensure that we get the right person into position and that people may have confidence--as the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton said--in that person, similarly, if it were proved that the person was ineffective, that could be raised with the tribunal by the person who objected to that representative, and they could ask for that certification to be withdrawn at the appropriate time.
I therefore hope that the amendments will give benefits to all parties to grievance and disciplinary hearings, because workers and employers need to be reassured and to rest easy that the accompanying person is an appropriate and competent person to do the job.
Mr. Collins:
The Minister said that it was important that the accompanying person should be effective in the representations that they make on behalf of others, and he spoke about the possibility of withdrawing certification if someone proved to be ineffective. The words of amendment No. 10 simply talk about certification as
Mr. Battle:
Let us test how the provision would work. I believe that it is up to trade unions to decide how they operate the accreditation process. By that I mean that they have a strong interest in ensuring that they field suitable lay representatives. Otherwise, full-time officials might have to be called in to sort out a problem caused by an
As I believe that the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Mr. Collins) acknowledges, most trade unions already provide training for their lay representatives, often via courses, educational services and the Trades Union Congress. It is in a trade union's interests to satisfy itself that officials who can perform such work are competent to do it. Probably, unions will not consider issuing a certificate to new lay officials until they have completed a basic shop steward's course, for example, or have been in post for a certain length of time. I believe that that is appropriate because the condition is that lay officials must be "reasonably certified"--in writing, as I emphasised--by their union
I was asked how a union was to be defined. As the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale mentioned it, I remind him that the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992 provides a clear definition of a union. An organisation would have to meet that definition in order for its officials to qualify as an accompanying person. I hope that I can reassure the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton that the purpose and intent of the amendments are to sharpen up the clause and give people rights to which they are entitled.
Mrs. Browning:
I am grateful to the Minister. Before he concludes, will he address the point about the employers of people who act as the accompanying official to people appearing before tribunals? As I outlined, an employee might find that, as a consequence of being certified, he or she was spending such a lot of time on this specialised work that it was having an impact on the employment that he or she was expected to carry out. Will the Minister say a few words about how he envisages that situation?
Mr. Battle:
The hon. Lady makes a fair point, but the whole purpose and tenor of the Bill is to develop a partnership at work. This is an absolute backstop case. The aim is not to be in a situation where an accompanying person is needed. Such a situation implies a failure by employers in the first instance to deal with grievances or disciplinary issues in an appropriate procedural manner. Tribunal proceedings detract from the focus of the employer and employee getting together and getting on with the job in a positive spirit. I accept the hon. Lady's point, but the purpose is to enable employees to have rights at work and to have people appropriately certified to stand by them if absolutely necessary and needed. Our intention is to reduce the number of occasions on which we need to be driven into those circumstances.
Lords amendment agreed to.
Lords amendments Nos. 9 to 14 agreed to.
The Secretary of State for Trade and Industry (Mr. Stephen Byers):
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this, it will be convenient to take Lords amendments Nos. 27, 297, 305 and 323, Lords amendment No. 323, amendments (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) thereto and Lords amendment No. 331.
Mr. Byers:
I shall deal briefly with the amendment and then spend slightly longer on the amendments tabled by the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) and his colleagues on the Intelligence and Security Committee, which raise some important points of principle. It is only right that the House should have the opportunity of discussing the way in which we want to treat these sensitive issues.
The amendments that were agreed to in the other place reflect a correct understanding in addressing the sensitive issue of national security. As drafted, clause 13(1) applies the right to be accompanied in grievance and disciplinary hearings to persons in Crown employment. It therefore applies to employment within the Security Service, the Secret Intelligence Service and the Government communications headquarters.
I am sure that the House will agree that the staff of the security and intelligence agencies rightly have a unique status. The sensitive nature of their employment sets them apart from other workers. We have therefore given further consideration to how their inclusion in this part of the Bill can reflect that particular position. We believe that there are amendments before the House that do precisely that. I hope that when Members have considered the amendments that were agreed in another place, they will agree with that approach.
This evening, the House will want to concentrate on amendments Nos. 323(a), (b), (d) and (e) in the name of the right hon. Member for Bridgwater. I hope that Government amendment No. 323(c) will go some way towards resolving the difficulties that can be identified in the right hon. Gentleman's amendments.
First, I shall address amendments Nos. 323(a) and (b). I shall then outline why we feel that amendment No. 323(c) is the appropriate way forward in dealing with these matters.
The Bill provides that a Minister may direct that an applicant and his representative be excluded from all or part of proceedings where the interests of national security require it. We anticipate that the power to exclude from all future proceedings will be used extremely rarely and only in the most extreme circumstances where national security interests could not be adequately protected otherwise.
Amendment No. 323(c) ensures that the tribunal regulations that will be made with regard to proceedings involving national security matters will be able to provide the right to make a statement in accordance with our policy. Lest there be any doubt, the Government undertake that the regulations will provide that an applicant or his representative will always be able to make such a statement.
I hope that the amendment will be recognised as one that discharges the obligation and the commitment that we recognised and gave in the House of Lords. It will be underpinned by the regulations that, we shall wish to introduce. I give a commitment that, in drawing up those regulations, we shall need to consult members of the Intelligence and Security Committee of which the right hon. Member for Bridgwater is the Chairman. That is wholly appropriate because they have drawn a particular issue to our attention. I believe that we shall benefit from the advice that we might receive from the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee. I would certainly wish to do that.
"having experience of, or . . . having received training".
If one has experience or has received training, those things do not disappear with the passage of time. Might the Minister be saying that the courts, in interpreting the legislation, should have regard to something that is not in the terms of the amendment--effectiveness?
"as having experience of . . . acting as"
an accompanying person or
"as having received training in"
performing that role.
Lords amendment: No. 15, after clause 13, to insert the following new clause--National security employees--
". Sections 10 to 13 of this Act shall not apply in relation to a person employed for the purposes of--
(a) the Security Service,
(b) the Secret Intelligence Service, or
(c) the Government Communications Headquarters."
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