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Mr. Robert Syms (Poole): I shall echo a few of the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire (Mr. Luff), who made a persuasive case. Conservative Members do not support the minimum wage, but we support good employment practices and, because other groups are not being exempted, we believe that exempting particular groups in such a way is fiddling. I believe that most of us have concerns about that matter. In the summer, I visited a pre-school playgroup in Newtown in my constituency that had made two helpers redundant. The employers felt very sad about doing that because, although those helpers were not paid a great deal, they did not qualify for the minimum wage. Why should people who work in pre-school playgroups be considered to be less worthy than members of some of those other groups? I am not sure.

The Secretary of State said that the amendment will affect 1,000 people, but I think that we need to hear a little more about how the Government arrived at that figure and who those people are. The drafting is a little wide and proposed subsection (2)(a) refers to a community that

"is a charity or is established by a charity".

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I am not worried about the charity aspect, because the Charity Commissioners apply pretty stringent standards, but the term "established by a charity" is rather unclear and I have concerns about it. Proposed subsection (2)(b) states:


"a purpose of the community is to practise or advance a belief of a religious or similar nature".

There is a problem with the term "a purpose". If the term "the purpose" had been used, the drafting would have been better and the provision would have been rather more specific. I am also concerned about the term "similar nature", which is ill defined. Religion covers a pretty broad area, but most of us would agree about what is and is not a religion. The term "similar nature" is rather more nebulous, however, and I am not sure that we would all agree about what it means.

We in Poole have had experience of cults. Some of them profess to be religions and to have particular spiritual values, but I am not sure that most of my constituents would want them to be treated in the same way as reputable religious orders, particularly because some cults have bad reputations in communities such as Poole. Proposed subsection (2)(c) refers to

"all or some of its members"

living "together for that purpose." Again, the drafting has been widely drawn and the measure should be rather more specific. Does that term mean a household or a very small proportion of the membership of a particular organisation? We need a little more specific information from those on the Treasury Bench about whom the measure will help.

We are discussing religious communities and we know that people have deeply held beliefs. One would welcome the measure in principle, but it has been widely drafted and one is concerned that, although its objective is worthy, organisations that are not worthy of that objective will make use of it. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Worcestershire said, why should some groups be able to use the "similar aspects" provision in order to be considered more worthy than pre-school playgroups or other bodies that contribute to communities in my constituency and in many others? Those bodies do a very good job, but, although they do a great deal for young children, they are not exempt from the legislation. They will suffer under it and I want clarification from Ministers.

Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury): I have been wondering whether I should declare any interests before contributing to the debate and I think that I should declare two, neither of which is pecuniary: the first is that I am the Member of Parliament for Stonehenge; the second is that I am an adviser to the Almshouse Association.

Thousands of people in this country live in almshouses of ancient foundations. Many of those foundations are religious--notably Christian--and such people live in communities to which a number of special exemptions apply--in respect of television licences for particular categories of people, for example. That is a bona fide reason why the association should benefit from certain legislative proposals that come before the House from time to time.

Nevertheless, I have great trouble when discussing things "of a . . . similar nature" to almshouses. It is astonishing that the House should be asked even to

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consider that wording without a proper explanation of what is meant. I am seriously wondering whether to support the amendment.

9.30 pm

The Almshouse Association represents more than 1,000 almshouses, which have been established down the years. It cares for thousands of people, thus saving the taxpayer and the state enormous cost. We should be grateful for that. In recent years, there have been a number of cases in which the almshouses have not been sure whetherthey should be regarded as religious or non-religious, communities or not communities. This wording would allow another confusion to creep in. The almshouses employ carers, cleaners and cooks. My hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) is particularly knowledgeable about this subject and would have wished to take part in this debate if only I had managed to contact him in time. Were he here, he would agree with every word that I have said.

When it comes to these exemptions, the question whether a community advances

"a belief of a religious or similar nature"

is extremely important. Therefore, the Almshouse Association has a legitimate interest in knowing exactly what is meant by that wording. I doubt whether it could tell from the provision before us.

Mrs. Browning: Is not this problem caused by the fact that a flaw in the drafting of the Government's minimum wage legislation calls into question a range of payments that we would normally have regarded as honorariums? People for whom some reward is given, but for whom no exceptional circumstances are provided, suddenly fall foul of the legislation.

Mr. Key: My hon. Friend is right, and countless examples could back up her case. That is just part of my concern about the amendment.

I shall now deal with Stonehenge. Some may feel that this is not a serious issue; I assure them, that for my constituents, it is extremely serious. We have seen what happened there recently. A large number of people, who regard themselves as a community and who practise a belief of a religious nature, were denied access to the summer solstice at the stones by others who thought that they had what might be called "a similar nature" approach to the problem. There was a battle in which, unfortunately, the police had to hold both groups apart and maintain public order in the process.

Although we may not think that the druids have a serious religion, they think so, and we live in a tolerant society that should acknowledge that they have the right to that belief. Only yesterday, I was with the arch druid of Stonehenge, with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and the chairman of English Heritage, discussing the future of Stonehenge and the appropriateness of the Stonehenge landscape for events to celebrate the millennium.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Would the hon. Gentleman care to address his remarks to the national minimum wage?

Mr. Key: The national minimum wage is of fundamental importance to the issue because, at the height

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of the troubles at Stonehenge 15 years ago, there was a great deal of employment, which was based on the occupation of land owned by the National Trust or managed by English Heritage on behalf of the Government and the nation. There is concern that, at the millennium solstice, as you will see, Mr. Deputy Speaker, next time you push the right buttons on your personal computer, the biggest rave ever is to take place at Stonehenge. Tens of thousands of people across the country may want to come to Stonehenge. The last time that happened, hundreds of people were involved in trading at Stonehenge, in association with a number of cults that thought they were religions. They were concerned that there should be a proper market price for their products. I saw what was on sale. The hell's angels were in control of the sale of alcohol.

Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am having great difficulty understanding how the hon. Member's remarks relate to the amendment. He should make his remarks specifically about the amendment.

Mr. Key: I shall do so, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

In those days, there was no national minimum wage, but now there is. Will the people gathering at Stonehenge for the millennium or on the ninth day of the ninth month of the 99th year, for the winter solstice or the spring equinox, let alone for next year's summer solstice, be subject to the minimum wage when they trade in alcohol or food on the site at Stonehenge? This is of great importance.

The amendment is unclear. What does it mean by

"of a religious or similar nature"?

Not only do the druids think that they are a religion, but so do other people who regularly descend on my constituents, such as the hell's angels, Swampy and friends or whoever. If they are law-abiding members of the community, that is fine by us. However, we have enough trouble with the Wiltshire constabulary having to enforce the laws on public order. What is the chief constable of Wiltshire to do when it comes to enforcing the national minimum wage at the stones?

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