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Mr. Battle: We could form an intentional community.
Mr. Byers: I am not sure that we would be able to form an intentional community within the context of the amendment, but the opportunity and the chance of doing so may be interesting.
The specific point raised by the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale was in relation to living-in costs. They often arise in the hospitality and hotel industry, where people work as chamber maids or porters, but have their accommodation provided. The National Minimum Wage Act considered that aspect and agreed an effective disregard; I think that it was for living-in costs of £19.50. However, it is capped at that level. Concerns have been expressed that that is artificially low for people in the hotel and catering industry, and for people in London, where £19.50 is considered to be a relatively small amount.
One of the reasons for the Government's retention of the Low Pay Commission was so that it could examine the detail of issues such as that. As part of its on-going work, the commission is looking at the costs of living-in accommodation, to see whether the amount is pitched at the correct level.
The commission intends to report to me just before December on a range of matters, and I am sure that the question of living-in accommodation will be one of the issues to which it will return. Indeed, it has already made it clear that it is taking evidence on the matter. A number of groups have made strong representations about the matter, and I am sure that it will feature in the Low Pay Commission's report.
I said that a number of groups, such as volunteers, nuns and monks, are exempt. The hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Mrs. Browning) was worried about protesters benefiting from the provision. I hope that I have been able to explain that they would not be covered by the details of the amendment. All that would happen is that they would not receive the benefits of the national minimum wage. I am not sure that Swampy could have been regarded as an employee when he was on the hon. Lady's roof. I doubt that he would have qualified for the national minimum wage, and I do not think that the hon. Lady was keen for him to be entitled to it.
Mr. Byers:
I followed with interest the hon. Lady's argument, but I could not identify the problem that she was trying to tackle in her example. I do not believe that protesters are covered by the provisions of the amendment. If they were, however, the amendment would mean simply that Swampy and his friends would not be entitled to the national minimum wage.
Mrs. Browning:
My concern was that not all protesters who are unemployed claim benefit, but instead receive some remuneration, sometimes from charitable donations. Under the amendment, they could be regarded as a community with a common cause and, because the amendment is so loosely worded, such a community need not be religious.
Mr. Byers:
I understand that concern, but I do not think that it need trouble the hon. Lady. The important thing to remember is that such people have to be residents of intentional communities, sharing living accommodation and tasks with the purpose of advancing a common religious or spiritual aim.
Mr. Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton):
The Secretary of State is talking about us.
Mr. Byers:
I am very tempted to go down that road, but I shall resist doing so, because the hon. Gentleman was referring to a very selective sect.
The basic requirement for classification as an intentional community is that the community provides meals and accommodation. Residential members of such communities often also receive small sums. Some communities treat their residential members as workers, issuing them with contracts of employment.
That is the key difference from the example given by the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton. As part of best practice, intentional communities consider it appropriate to issue members with contracts of employment, even though there is no legal obligation to do so.
The hon. Member for Salisbury spoke about Stonehenge so eloquently that I am sure that many hon. Members will want to visit. I was trying to recall whether the monument could be regarded as residential accommodation.
Mr. Byers:
The hon. Gentleman clearly knows the area far better than I do.
Mr. Peter Brooke (Cities of London and Westminster):
In the light of the Secretary of State's residential observation, is he aware of the Frank Muir spoof, which one used to be able to listen to on British Airways flights to the United States? Frank Muir was conducting an interview between the editor of The Architectural Review and a cave man about the architectural development of the henge, in which the cave man said that he did not think that henges would catch on because they were much too draughty.
Mr. Byers:
That may explain a lot about our history. I thought that the right hon. Gentleman was about to give an example from "The Goon Show"--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. Perhaps the Secretary of State could return to the amendment.
Mr. Byers:
I was thinking of the episode involving the Spitfire test pilot where there was banging on the cockpit. I had better not go any further.
I wanted to address the serious points about Stonehenge and residential accommodation, and I know that the House is waiting for my response on behalf of the Government on the important point concerning the druids. Before I come to that, I note that the hon. Member for Salisbury asked about almshouses and their staff. Staff, such as cooks and cleaners, who work in almshouses are working for the Almshouse Association and, as such, are not required to share a common religious belief or to live together in shared accommodation. Therefore, they would not be covered by amendment No. 20 which has been agreed by the other place, so they would not be exempt from the National Minimum Wage Act.
Druids, as I understand it, are not a registered charity. Therefore, for the reasons that have been referred to, they do not come within the definition to which amendment No. 20 relates. If they did become a charity and moved into shared accommodation for the purpose of advancing the druid movement, they might be exempt from the national minimum wage, but--this is the important point--anyone who worked for them would be entitled to receive the national minimum wage and would not be covered by amendment No. 20.
Both amendments are significant. We have discussed amendment No. 20 at some length and I hope that I have answered the concerns of all hon. Members. Amendment No. 25 is particularly important because it is an effective way of enforcing the national minimum wage legislation. For those reasons, I invite the House to agree to amendment No. 20.
Question put, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment:--
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