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Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Mon): I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael J. Martin): With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 17, in clause 24, page 13, line 10, at end insert--
'(7A) If the Agency fails to comply with directions under subsection (1) in a case where the power under subsection (1) has been exercised by the National Assembly for Wales, the National Assembly for Wales may--
(a) remove from office the member of the Agency appointed by it, and
(b) remove from office any members of the advisory committee for Wales,
and until new appointments are made, may itself make provision for the carrying out of the Agency's functions.'.
No. 13, in clause 33, page 17, line 43, at end insert
No. 14, in page 18, line 5, at end insert--
No. 35, in schedule 4, page 36, line 5, at end insert--'Government of Wales Act 1998 (c. 38)--
Mr. Jones:
It is a pleasure to speak to the new clause and the amendments. The spirit of these matters was discussed in the National Assembly for Wales when the Health and Social Services Committee considered whether there should be a separate agency for Wales. Clause 33 in particular makes one realise that the House is already paving the way, under the devolved provisions, for the possibility of separate agencies for Scotland and Northern Ireland, whereas no such provision is being made for Wales. That is a mistake. If Wales wants to pursue separate policies on food standards and wants the same flexibility as Scotland and Northern Ireland, it should have that opportunity.
For example, the Welsh Assembly received scientific advice from the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee when we conducted our inquiry into beef on the bone. It was not necessary for the Welsh Assembly to have separate scientific advice. It was perfectly proper for it to accept SEAC's advice on that occasion, so I see no reason why the situation should be different with the Food Standards Agency. The Bill should allow the Welsh Assembly to have the same flexibility as Scotland and
Northern Ireland in developing policies and, in the interests of consistency, we should have similar provisions.
Amendments Nos. 13 and 14 should be viewed in the context of our argument in support of new clause 3. I therefore move quickly to amendment No. 17. It would give the Assembly the power to remove the agency member for Wales who is appointed by the Assembly under clause 2, and any member of the advisory committee for Wales. That would be a useful addition to the powers conferred on the Welsh Assembly by this legislation. Although I hope that we will never have to call for the removal of appointees, it is important to ensure that the Welsh Assembly has that sanction.
In the interests of brevity, I shall move on to amendment No. 35. As the House will know, the schedule to the Government of Wales Act 1998 lists several bodies that the Assembly can call to give advice to it and evidence to its Sub-Committees. The Welsh Assembly has been working for only a matter of weeks, but I think that subject Committees are an excellent concept. The Committees are doing excellent work and providing good information to the people of Wales. I strongly urge the Minister to accept this amendment because I think that the Food Standards Agency should be called to give evidence to the appropriate Sub-Committee which will want to consider a range of issues in the interests of probity.
On that basis, I hope that the Government will feel minded to accept at least some of the amendments.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Jon Owen Jones):
Hon. Members will want to debate several important amendments and new clauses later this evening. Therefore, I intend to deal with these amendments quickly, unless I am pressed.
I thank the hon. Member for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones) for the brevity with which he explained his amendments, and I shall deal rapidly with new clause 3 and speak to amendments Nos. 17, 13 and 14. The hon. Gentleman has done what I have come to expect from a member of Plaid Cymru when we consider Bills that involve Wales as well as England: he has tried to rewrite the Government of Wales Act 1998 by giving primary legislation powers to the Welsh Assembly.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones:
Quite right.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones:
I understand the hon. Gentleman's point of view. Nevertheless, even if I were persuaded by his argument, I am sure that he will agree that this is not the right vehicle through which fundamentally to redraw the Government of Wales Act, which the people of Wales accepted in the 1997 referendum. I must therefore reject the amendments.
The intention behind amendment No. 35 is to give the National Assembly for Wales power to require attendance and production of documents by any person who is a member or a member of staff of the Food Standards Agency and its advisory committee for Wales. Having considered that amendment, I think it appropriate that the power of summons should apply to the agency and the advisory committee. Although the agency will be a Crown body, there are no close parallels operating in Wales. The agency will have the full range of policy
responsibilities on food safety, which is a devolved area, and it is appropriate that the Assembly should be able to summon agency members, staff and the advisory committee when it deems necessary. We are, therefore, minded to accept that amendment.
The other amendments, however are not appropriate because they require primary legislation powers. The National Assembly for Wales will have important secondary legislation powers to determine regulations governing food safety in Wales. As the hon. Gentleman will know, those powers allow the Assembly to determine policy on matters such as beef on the bone, the licensing of butchers' shops, codes and practices governing how local authorities enforce food laws, infant food regulations, food additive regulations and food labelling regulations. It is not appropriate to extend those powers to primary legislation within the Bill.
Mr. Robert Walter (North Dorset):
I was a member of the Special Select Committee that considered the Bill, but I was not a member of the Standing Committee. I shall dispel a myth that has pervaded the debates on this Bill. Rather than analysing the Bill clause by clause, the Select Committee considered its general provisions. We did so in a short time, and with some confusion of evidence, because those who were presenting evidence were not sure whether they were doing so to us, as a Select Committee of the House, or to the Government.
The Select Committee considered the subject of this new clause and amendments, the consequences of devolution and the problems of a UK-wide agency that would be answerable to four different independent bodies: the Department of Health, the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Welsh Assembly.
There is today a supreme irony in the amendments moved on behalf of Plaid Cymru by the hon. Member for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones) because they undermine the spirit of the devolved Welsh Assembly, which does not, as the Minister stated, have primary legislative functions. They would also take Wales out of the Food Standards Bill altogether, or, as I suspect the hon. Member for Ynys Mon desires, create a separate Welsh food standards agency.
The irony of that is demonstrated on the front page of today's Western Mail, which carries the headline, "Fury as beef on the bone ban stays", following the announcement yesterday at a press conference in Cardiff of what had been the worst-kept secret in Welsh agriculture for the past week. Meeting in private last week, the Agriculture Committee of the National Assembly for Wales voted to forgo its existing powers in an important area of food standards--the beef-on-the-bone ban. Members of that Committee had earlier said that they would vote to lift the ban, but have now changed their minds.
Mr. Jon Owen Jones:
I am not a spokesperson for the National Assembly for Wales, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that it did not vote to forgo its powers; it simply decided not to lift the beef on the bone ban now. The purpose of devolution was to allow the devolved powers to decide for themselves. The fact that Assembly Members--in their wisdom, I believe--decided that they would not, for the time being, take a decision that was
'; or--
(c) the National Assembly for Wales passes a resolution expressing the view that the functions of the Agency ought not to be any longer exercisable in or as regards Wales.'.
'(aa) modifying this or any other Act as She considers necessary or expedient in consequence of a resolution of the National Assembly for Wales of the sort referred to in subsection (1)(c) above;'.
. In Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 1998 there shall be inserted--
"Food Standards Agency.
Food Standards Agency advisory committee for Wales.".'
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