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Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Gentleman's remarks must be more specific and remain within the terms of his amendment. In some respects, he is making a Second Reading speech. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman should remind us of the content of his amendment.
Mr. Gill: I shall come directly to the point, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Members of Parliament may consider legislation such as the Food Standards Bill but we do not always examine, scrutinise and criticise it in the way that we should. That is particularly true of new Members of Parliament. I was a new Member myself once, and I have kicked myself for not being more diligent in respect of the 1990 legislation to which I referred a moment ago that led to other legislation--to much of which I and others would have objected.
That is a most important point for the House to understand. If we pass general legislation and put enabling Bills on to the statute book, we should not be surprised and should not complain if Departments then introduce many regulations that we had not foreseen.
In conclusion, I make a final plea to the Minister to act with his characteristic even-handedness, fairness and understanding and accept the amendment.
The Minister for Public Health (Ms Tessa Jowell):
As the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) said, we had much debate in Committee about the independence of the agency as a non-ministerial Department. It might help the House if I reiterate the rules under which the agency will operate.
In its day-to-day operation, the agency will be at arm's length from Ministers, and staff will be accountable to its chairman and members. It will have the unprecedented independence to publish the advice that it gives to Ministers. However, it would be wrong to suggest that the
agency should be wholly independent of democratically accountable Ministers. Ministers will retain ultimate responsibility for policy and legislation, and it is right that they should do so, but they will turn to the agency for policy advice. The agency will be the Government's primary source of advice on food safety and standards.
I am not convinced that the amendment is helpful, because Ministers will naturally explain to the agency why they are asking for advice, and the agency will have powers to publish any information in its possession, unless that is specifically prohibited by an enactment or Community obligations, or unless publication would make the agency in contempt of court. It would, therefore, be able to publish information about requests from Ministers.
It is not, however, appropriate to place on Ministers of the Crown, Government Departments, the National Assembly for Wales, Scottish Ministers and Northern Ireland Departments the extra duty to publish immediately the reason why they are asking for advice. In sensitive matters, such as negotiations or legal proceedings, publication of the reasons for requesting advice might be premature. As we reflected in Committee, it might also be socially embarrassing. A Minister might seek advice from the agency about whether to attend a particular function, and if the answer were blunt, clearly embarrassment could result.
Although the power can be used to ensure that advice is given, there is no way in which it can be used to dictate the content of that advice. It will be left to the agency to decide how to respond to requests for advice, information and assistance from Ministers. Records of the agency's decisions and the information on which they are based will be publicly available, which means that information about Ministers' requests to the agency and how those requests were dealt with will become publicly available.
I turn now to amendment No. 12. I hope that I can reassure the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) and put to rest some of his worst fears.
I reiterate a point that was forcefully made in Committee by my hon. Friend the Minister of State--that the clause does not give the agency unusual powers. The agency has only the powers given to it by the Bill, but it is very important technically and legally that the agency has the powers that it is given by the clause so that it can, for instance, enter into contracts to have its offices cleaned and arrange for stationery supplies. Everything that the agency does will obviously be constrained by the extent of its powers, which are clearly set out in the Bill, and the very important qualifications about the exercise of its powers, especially in relation to the assessment of risk and proportionality.
The agency will publish an annual report, which will be laid before Parliament. We have made clear the importance that we, as Ministers, attach to the annual report, but I think that if we were to publish in the annual report a list of photocopying contracts and stationery orders, it would make dull reading.
I finish by saying that, far from being anything as exotic as the Martini clause, clause 21 is the stuff of basic departmental and agency housekeeping. I assure the hon. Member for Ludlow that the Food and Drink Federation has contributed its views freely throughout a long process of consultation, and where appropriate, the Bill has been improved as a result of its representations. However, if we were to put on the face of the Bill the terms under which the agency would order its pencils and monitor its paper supplies, it would diminish the enormous importance that we attach to its overriding task of protecting public health and improving standards of food safety. I therefore very much hope that the hon. Member for Meriden will withdraw the amendment.
Mrs. Spelman:
I have carefully listened to the right hon. Lady's explanation. She stated the circumstances in which it might not be appropriate for reasons to be published immediately when the agency was requested to exercise its powers, and I can envisage circumstances in which that would be true. It was a bit of a let-down to hear the rather benign examples of purposes for which the exotically titled clause 21 would be used but, having listened to those explanations--
Mr. Gill:
I wonder whether my hon. Friend thought, as I did, that the Minister trivialised clause 21 by referring to the unnecessary procedure of having to report matters relating to office cleaning, stationery supplies, pencil orders, paper supplies and so on. However, clause 21(2)(d) talks about the instituting of criminal proceedings. We are not talking only about trivial items such as the ordering of pencils. This is a very serious point.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The hon. Gentleman cannot make a speech during an intervention; that is just not on.
Mrs. Spelman:
Obviously, I appreciate the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Gill) because we approach the point from the same direction, but in Committee, we received an explanation of the circumstances in which it might be necessary for the agency to institute criminal proceedings, and I refer him to Hansard on that point. The wording of clause 21 is difficult for a reader coming to it for the first time, but we accept that, as the Minister said in Committee, it should be read in conjunction with the other clauses.
It is interesting to note, and worth placing on the record given the likelihood that we shall not reach Government amendment No. 28, that that amendment requires the Secretary of State to publish reasons for giving directions to the Food Standards Agency in the event of a breach of duty. We welcome that amendment. It shows that the Government are sensitive to the point that there are times when it is paramount to make the reasons explicit and publish them. We accept that there may be other times when it is inappropriate--in particular, the timing may
be inappropriate--to publish the reasons for requiring the agency to exercise its powers. For these reasons, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Gill:
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. I, too, listened carefully to the--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. Is the hon. Lady giving way?
Mrs. Spelman:
I have withdrawn the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Ms Jowell:
I beg to move amendment No. 19, in page 5, line 3, leave out from 'out' to end of line and insert
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 20 to 27.
Ms Jowell:
We had a full and detailed debate in Committee on the operation of clauses 11 and 14, to ensure specifically first, that only the agency, or one of its committees or sub-committees, or a member acting on behalf of the agency, authorised the use of powers of entry. Secondly, the Committee wished to ensure that the authorisation would be limited to a particular purpose if it was issued under clause 11--in relation to carrying out observations--which would be stated in the authorisation itself. We agreed that receipts for samples or copies of documents would be given on request.
'any observations under section 10 specified in the authorisation.
(1A) No authorisation under this section shall be issued except in pursuance of a decision taken by the Agency itself or by a committee, sub-committee or member of the Agency acting on behalf of the Agency.'.
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