| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. Paice: I shall give the Minister time to reply; he does not need to intervene.
I do not understand why it is necessary for the FSA to fulfil that role. The Minister worried members of the Committee when he said that the Government were still
exploring the management arrangements between the FSA and the MHS. He spoke about Chinese walls of separation. We are not at all convinced that they will be as effective as they ought to be.
Amendment No. 9 was effectively given to us by the Government in Committee when the Minister pointed out the implications of another amendment that I had tabled. He now has two opportunities to accept our argument in two different ways. If the Government are obsessed with pursuing the idea of putting the MHS with the FSA, they can do so as long as they leave the monitoring of enforcement with MAFF and with those other bodies to which he has referred. Amendment No. 3 would allow them to do that.
Amendment No. 18, which relates to schedule 4, is designed to control the overweening power of the agency. The Minister for Public Health, who seems to have evaporated from the Front Bench, said that we have spent a lot of time talking about the independence of the agency. She is quite right: there is no contradiction between seeking to establish an independent agency and ensuring that it does not have excessive power. That amendment is designed to ensure that, in at least one area, the agency's power would be constrained. It would not be given the powers that Ministers have under the Food Safety Act 1990.
Other brief contributions may be made, but I am sure that the Minister will have a moment or two to reply before we run out of time.
Dr. Brand:
The hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire (Mr. Paice) has told us that he was riding two horses; I believe he has jumped on the wrong one.
We have supported the Conservatives in their contention that it is not appropriate to site the Meat Hygiene Service with the Food Standards Agency because its size is disproportionate to that of the agency, but I firmly believe that the FSA ought to have a role in monitoring and policy setting for all the enforcement agencies. If the FSA had been in existence a few years ago and had done the job properly, the MHS would never have had to be set up. It would not have to be taken away from local authorities because there would have been a mechanism in place for intervention, short of the nuclear option, as described by the Minister, of direct ministerial intervention. We cannot support the amendment because it takes the wrong direction.
In time, if not tonight, I hope that the Minister will be able to describe how he has worked through the concept of separating the policy-setting function of the agency and the semi-autonomous role of the MHS in the execution of that function.
It is absolutely vital that the FSA sets clear criteria for what it considers to be failure by an enforcement authority. It would be quite wrong for it to have powers that could be applied quite arbitrarily to, for example, a local standards agency or other enforcement agencies that are under local authority control. The criteria on performance must be clear, and one would expect warning systems so that an agency does not suddenly come down like a ton of bricks on an unsuspecting small district council that does not realise that it is under-performing.
We cannot support the amendment although the spirit behind it was right, separating the Meat Hygiene Service from the Food Standards Agency. The hon. Member for South-East Cambridgeshire has taken the wrong horse of the two that he might have taken.
Mr. Rooker:
I should like to make a serious attempt to respond to the debate. This is one of the most important groups of amendments, which we started on, if I recall correctly, at 8 o'clock. [Interruption.] Oh, the hon. Member for New Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) is back. We have had the debates without him and made reasonable progress.
There is no way I can do justice to the issue, which is important. I do not criticise the Opposition for raising their concerns, but I can make only general, rather than specific, comments.
The prime reason for the Meat Hygiene Service and, indeed, the Dairy Hygiene Service being, effectively, an integral part of the agency is that they are 100 per cent. concerned with food safety, whereas the other agencies under MAFF, including the Veterinary Medicines Directorate and the Pesticides Safety Directorate, are not exclusively related to food safety. They are out. They will remain as executive agencies, but with all the links to the agency.
Mr. Gill:
Will the Minister give way?
The other thing that I want to make clear--I have lost count of how many times I said it in Committee, but it has to be said so that it is taken on board by those who look at our proceedings--is that there are no plans or agenda to create a national enforcement authority. That is the position. The Bill does not allow one to be set up. One could argue that if a local authority failed in its enforcement duties the powers are in the Bill to have that dealt with. That is not envisaged. It is not part of any hidden agenda, whatever anyone might say about how the Meat Hygiene Service was formed in the first place.
In Committee I discovered that, in some quarters, there is an abiding hatred of the Meat Hygiene Service. As someone said a couple of days ago, there is a romantic attachment to the good old days, when 300 separate local authorities checked the abattoirs. At that time, there were 900 abattoirs. We inherited only 300--a few closed in the 18 years of Tory rule.
As we saw in the public hearings of the Phillips inquiry, during those halcyon, romantic days of local authorities checking meat hygiene in abattoirs, there was an abject breakdown in the controls, which led to BSE infectivity going into the food chain, so it is not true that things were 100 per cent. perfect when 300 local authorities were dealing with the matter.
With hindsight, I accept that the actions of the previous Government in setting up the Meat Hygiene Service were totally correct. There are no plans to devolve it back. Nevertheless, there is no agenda to take local authorities' role at any level--that of environmental health officers or trading standards officers. They are the front-line police throughout the food chain. We want to work in partnership with them. That is the way in which the Bill has been set up.
We will make separate arrangements for the management reporting of the Meat Hygiene Service within the Foods Standards Agency and for the audit. I am convinced that we can do that. If it can be done in the private sector, with audit companies both carrying out internal and external audits of their clients and maintaining Chinese walls, we can do it here. If I had had more time, I could have put on the record some of the management mechanisms that we propose to introduce, but perhaps that can be done in another place.
The genuine concerns that have been raised have been met by the content of the Bill and the way in which we intend the structures to operate in practice. There is still some work to do, but there are a few months in which to do it.
It being six hours after the commencement of proceedings on consideration of the Bill, Mr. Deputy Speaker, pursuant to Order [this day], put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair.
Amendment negatived.
Mr. Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.
Question put, That the Bill be now read the Third time:--
The House proceeded to a Division:
Mr. Graham Allen and Mr. Keith Hill were appointed Tellers for the Ayes; but there being no Tellers for the Noes, Mr. Deputy Speaker declared that the Ayes had it.
Amendments made: No. 24, in page 6, line 42, at end insert--
'(1A) No authorisation under this section shall be issued except in pursuance of a decision taken by the Agency itself or by a committee, sub-committee or member of the Agency acting on behalf of the Agency.'.
No. 25, in page 7, line 24, leave out from 'shall' to end of line 25 and insert 'on request--
(a) produce his authorisation before exercising any powers under subsection (3); and
(b) provide a document identifying any sample taken, or documents copied, under those powers.'.
No. 26, in page 7, line 26 leave out from beginning to 'any' in line 27 and insert
'If a person who enters'.
No. 27, in page 7, line 29 leave out from 'secret' to 'guilty' in line 30 and insert
'he is, unless the disclosure is made in the performance of his duty,'.--[Mr. Rooker.]
Amendment made: No. 28, in page 12, line 29 at end insert--
'(2A) Directions under subsection (1) must include a statement summarising the reasons for giving them.'.--[Mr. Rooker.]
Amendment made: No. 29, in page 21, line 20 at end insert--
'(6A) Schedule (Accounts and audit) (accounts and audit) has effect.'.--[Mr. Rooker.]
Amendment made: No. 31, in page 25, line 32, leave out from 'affect' to end of line 33 and insert
'the rule of law by virtue of which functions of the Agency may be carried out through members of its staff'.--[Mr. Rooker.]
Amendments made: No. 30, in page 33, line 45, leave out '4' and insert '6'.
No. 35, in page 36, line 5, at end insert--
. In Schedule 5 to the Government of Wales Act 1998 there shall be inserted--
"Food Standards Agency.
Food Standards Agency advisory committee for Wales.".'--[Mr. Rooker.]
1. For the purposes of this Schedule--
"relevant authorities" means the Treasury, the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Ministers and the Department of Finance and Personnel for Northern Ireland;
"relevant bodies" means the House of Commons, the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament and the Northern Ireland Assembly;
"the Department" means the Department of Finance and Personnel for Northern Ireland.
2.--(1) Where any appropriation accounts of the Agency or report of the Comptroller and Auditor General on such accounts are laid before the House of Commons under the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1866, the Comptroller and Auditor General shall send copies to the relevant authorities for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
(2) The Scottish Ministers shall present documents received under this paragraph to the Scottish Parliament and the Department shall present such documents to the Northern Ireland Assembly.
3.--(1) The Agency shall prepare separate accounts for each year of its expenditure in relation to each of the following descriptions of sums, that is to say--
(a) the sums paid by the National Assembly for Wales under section 39(3)(a);
(b) the sums paid out of the Scottish Consolidated Fund under section 39(3)(b); or
(c) sums appropriated by Act of the Northern Ireland Assembly under section 39(3)(c).
(2) Any sum received by the Agency which it applies by virtue of any relevant provision (within the meaning of section 39) shall be regarded as falling within paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of sub-paragraph (1), as the case may require.
(3) Accounts required under this paragraph relating to sums of any description mentioned in sub-paragraph (1)--
(a) shall be prepared in such form, and
(b) shall be sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General, and to the relevant authority for the accounts, before such time,
as the relevant authority for the accounts may direct after consulting the Agency and the other relevant authorities.
(4) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall examine any accounts sent to him under sub-paragraph (3) on behalf of the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament or the Northern Ireland Assembly (according to the description of sums to which the accounts relate).
(5) In carrying out his examination of any such accounts the Comptroller and Auditor General shall, among other things, satisfy himself that the money expended by the Agency has been applied to the purpose or purposes for which the sums in question were intended to provide.
(6) When the Comptroller and Auditor General has certified and reported on any accounts under this section, he shall--
(a) send the accounts and report to the relevant authority for the accounts; and
(b) send copies to the other relevant authorities.
(7) The Treasury shall present documents received under sub-paragraph (6) to the House of Commons, the Scottish Ministers shall present such documents to the Scottish Parliament and the Department shall present such documents to the Northern Ireland Assembly.
(8) In this paragraph "the relevant authority for the accounts" is--
(a) in the case of accounts relating to sums within sub-paragraph (1)(a), the National Assembly for Wales;
(b) in the case of accounts relating to sums within sub-paragraph (1)(b), the Scottish Ministers; and
(c) in the case of accounts relating to sums within sub-paragraph (1)(c), the Department.
4.--(1) The Agency shall prepare consolidated accounts for each financial year showing its income and expenditure and its overall state of affairs for that year.
(2) Accounts under this paragraph shall--
(a) be prepared in such form (and include such documents), and
(b) be sent to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to the Treasury before such time,
as the Treasury may direct after consulting the Agency and the other relevant authorities.
(3) The Comptroller and Auditor General shall examine any accounts sent to him under sub-paragraph (2) on behalf of the House of Commons.
(4) When any such accounts have been certified and reported on by the Comptroller and Auditor General, he shall--
(a) send the certified accounts and the report to the Treasury who shall lay them before the House of Commons; and
(b) send copies of those documents to the other relevant authorities.
(5) The Scottish Ministers shall present documents received under sub-paragraph (4) to the Scottish Parliament and the Department shall present such documents to the Northern Ireland Assembly.
5.--(1) Any functions of the Treasury under section 5 of the Exchequer and Audit Departments Act 1921 shall, subject to
sub-paragraph (2), be exercisable in relation to the Agency with the consent of the other relevant authorities and after consulting the Agency.
(2) The consent of a relevant authority is not required if the operations concerned do not include operations carried out in or in relation to the jurisdiction for which it is the relevant authority.
(3) If a direction under section 5 of that Act is given in respect of the Agency, that section shall have effect as if any reference to Parliament or the House of Commons included a reference to each of the other relevant bodies, other than the relevant body for any jurisdiction referred to in sub-paragraph (2).
6.--(1) The power of the Comptroller and Auditor General to make reports to the House of Commons under section 9 of the National Audit Act 1983 includes power, in relation to any examination of the Agency under section 6 of that Act, to make reports to any of the other relevant bodies.
(2) If the Comptroller and Auditor General makes a report to one or more of the relevant bodies under section 9 of that Act in relation to such an examination, he shall lay a copy of the report before each of the other relevant bodies.'--[Mr. Rooker.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
Order for Third reading read.
| Next Section
| Index | Home Page |