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Mr. Straw: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's endorsement of Neill's proposals and our response to them. We are not proposing that the commission should advise on questions in a referendum. Once the commission is established, it will be seen whether that is considered an appropriate role for the commission, which may take the view that advising on the wording of a question in a referendum could lead the commission into partisan areas.
In practice, while there has been argument about the questions in the referendums that we have had in this country in the past 25 years, everyone has known what the issue has been. It has been clear: do we stay in the Common Market, or leave? Do we vote for a National Assembly for Wales and a Scottish Parliament? In future, do we vote for a change in the electoral system, or not? Do we vote to join the euro? It is not a huge problem.
On devolution, I accept the gravamen of the hon. Gentleman's comments. We acknowledge in the draft White Paper that many parties--this applies particularly
to the Liberal Democrats, but increasingly to others--have a federated structure, and we must be sensitive to that. He will understand that, with some small exceptions, the question of elections within the UK is a reserved area, however. We have sought to square the circle properly in the draft Bill but we are open to proposals and comments on whether we have got it right.
There is no proposal in the Bill that should for a second have the effect of preventing a United Kingdom resident who happens to be under 18 from making donations to political parties, but if such a gremlin has crept into the drafting, we shall ensure that it is removed. The purpose of that part of the Bill is to restrict foreign, not under-age donations. We are happy to have donations from people of any age.
The Neill committee considered upper limits on individual donations in some detail. I do not believe that they are practical. It is far more effective to cap spending and have full disclosure of donations than to try to cap what individuals may give. With the best will in the world, if we go down that route we end up with all the complications that have been found in the United States, where, in practice, a level playing field is not secured for the political parties and a great deal of evasion is encouraged, to small purpose.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst):
Order. A lot of hon. Members want to ask questions and I have to think of protecting the later business, in which many hon. Members have said that they would like to speak. Let us have short questions and short answers, please.
Mr. Robert Sheldon (Ashton-under-Lyne):
My right hon. Friend has announced a major change in the way in which the financial operations of elections are conducted, and I expected no less. He rightly started with the Neill recommendations. I am not altogether happy with the upper figure of £20 million, which may be open to discussion, but the most important aspects are the electoral commission and the electoral commissioner. The initiative that the commissioner can show will be available for the first time to keep a close control on the financial operations of elections.
How much time does my right hon. Friend envisage the commissioner being able to devote to the job? Will it be a full-time or a part-time post?
Mr. Straw:
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his endorsement. He speaks with great experience, not only as Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee but as a long-serving former Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. We will want to draw on his experience, as we want to base the independence of the new electoral commission on the model of the National Audit Office and the Comptroller and Auditor General.
The first part of the Bill gives the commission wide powers and restricts the powers of the Secretary of State, because some changes in electoral law will be able to be proposed in the House only if they have been endorsed by the commission. I would anticipate that the commissioner's would be a full-time post, and there would certainly need to be a substantial number of
full-time staff as well as other part-time commissioners. We intend to ensure that the commission can do a proper and effective job.
Mr. John MacGregor (South Norfolk):
As a member of the Neill committee, I warmly welcome the Government's acceptance of the vast majority of our recommendations, and in particular those on referendums, both because there was some doubt whether the Government would accept them and more especially because it was very clear to us in the hearings that we held around the country that the funding arrangements for the earlier referendums under the present Government left a great deal to be desired.
The Home Secretary referred with approval to the Neill principle that strong and healthy parties are essential to the functioning of a strong democracy. The second part of the sentence to which he was referring goes on:
Mr. Straw:
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, and especially for his welcome for what I said about accepting the regime for referendums. I am aware that a canard was flying that there was some doubt about the Government's position, but I made it clear, in an interview on the day that it was issued, that we welcomed the whole of the report. The right hon. Gentleman will remember that, in the debate in early November, I again made clear our acceptance of the referendum proposals.
I understand that the right hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr. MacGregor) has strong views about the proposals to make small donations to political parties tax-deductible. The Government take a different view. We are of course open to representations, although they would have to be very strong to make us change our mind. I do not accept that the degree of people's involvement in a democracy would depend on whether they could get tax relief on their donations.
We have a pretty vibrant, working democracy in this country. Not enough people are involved in the system, and all political parties would like more people to get actively involved in politics. They would also like politics, through civics courses, to become more central to the education of the nation's children. There are other ways of achieving that, and I believe that if there is a case for giving state aid to political parties--including state aid for political education--that aid should be given explicitly, rather than through the happenstance of individuals' donations on which tax could be deducted.
Mr. Harry Barnes (North-East Derbyshire):
Will we have to wait until the electoral commission has finished its work before further reforms to the electoral system, beyond those in the White Paper, are introduced? I am thinking especially of a rolling register to cover the millions of people missing from existing registers, and of the registration of homeless people. If those reforms are
Mr. Straw:
I can give my hon. Friend the assurance that he seeks. We will not have to wait for the electoral commission to complete its work. Indeed, as the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth), has already announced, we have separate proposals from the all-party electoral working party for other changes to improve the process, and they include the introduction of a rolling register.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
I generally welcome the Home Secretary's statement, but I seek clarification on two matters. First, will funds from outside Wales be allowed to be given to political parties fighting elections to the National Assembly for Wales? Secondly, will the electoral commission be relevant to the Assembly, and to local government in Wales?
Mr. Straw:
I know of no way in which we could prevent motor vehicles travelling across the Severn bridge from carrying donations to the Welsh Assembly. The idea that we could recreate Offa's dyke, fill in all the gaps and thereby put a wall around Wales is not a proposition that even the right hon. Gentleman would want to pursue. The proposals that I have set out are for the whole of the United Kingdom.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about local government in Wales. That is a reserved matter, but the organisation of local government boundaries in Wales is a devolved matter for the National Assembly for Wales. The White Paper makes it clear that, if the National Assembly wished the review of those boundaries to be taken over by the electoral commission, we would be open to making provision for that.
Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover):
I have to say that this statement is a darn sight better than the one before it. [Laughter.] Does my right hon. Friend agree that trade unionists in particular will be very pleased at the announcement that shareholders will be able to subject donations to a vote of approval?
"as a means of engaging very large numbers of people . . . in the whole democratic process."
In that respect, the recommendation for tax relief on small donations from large numbers of people was, we thought, crucial. One of the effects of our recommendations and the Government's acceptance of them will be some diminution in donations from other quarters, hence the importance of encouraging such donations to fill the gap. Will the Home Secretary think again about tax relief?
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