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5.33 pm
Mr. Elfyn Llwyd (Meirionnydd Nant Conwy): To quote Lewis Carroll, this debate is becoming curiouser and curiouser. We have been discussing the West Lothian
question for hours, and the architect seems to be missing from the Chamber. There is some talk in the Lobby that he has been imprisoned in Millbank Tower, but I do not know whether that is true.
Post-devolution, many questions will have to be asked. There is uncertainty about how the relationship between this place and the National Assembly for Wales will develop, but, crucially, there is some uncertainty about the future relationship and conduct of affairs with the European Commission and the Council of Ministers, and the important role that the National Assembly will play in that regard.
It does not matter whether one is on the progressive side of the argument--believing that devolution is a process, not an event--or on the regressive side, or dinosaur tendency, which adheres to the opposite view. We have before us a real opportunity to improve the governance of Wales and, in so doing, to bring it far closer to the people. That will bring with it a far greater sense of accountability, something that I am sure that we would all want.
In the European context, I am pleased to note that the agreed concordats provide:
There are many other issues to consider, such as the deep and wider agricultural crisis in Wales. The crisis in Wales is different from that in the other constituent parts of the United Kingdom. There is an immediate case for a Secretary from Wales to represent the National Assembly at a European level.
Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones (Ynys Mon):
My hon. Friend has referred to concordats and our problems in agriculture. Does he agree that we could make considerable progress if the Government in Westminster were to push ahead with plans to have much wider concordats between, for example, the National Assembly's Agriculture Secretary and the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, so that the ground rules are clear into the future?
Mr. Llwyd:
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. The concordats are very important documents. We have waited a long time for them, and I welcome the fact that they have now been produced. I am pleased that they will be reviewed annually. Despite what I said earlier, I realise that this process takes time and we cannot have all the answers at once.
The impact of the agricultural crisis on all sectors of the Welsh agricultural economy is slightly different, and problems will be tackled differently from those in East Anglia, where substantial farmers farm in a totally
different way. I hope that we take advantage of this concordat, and move forward to better the situation of people in rural Wales.
In March this year, I gave evidence to the Procedure Committee, which is ably chaired by the hon. Member for Macclesfield. I welcomed that inquiry because things were, and are, going to change. My major concern at that time was the suggestion that the Welsh Grand Committee should be abolished: "suspended" was the word used. To be perfectly honest, the Welsh Grand Committee is no great shakes. Its list of achievements is minimal, to put it mildly. It has never taken any decisions of earth- shattering importance.
Nevertheless, it is a conduit to Welsh opinion, and, in its latter stages, it met several times in Wales and was a tangible and useful link with the electors. Fewer meetings in Wales may be called for post-devolution, but the vital point that I was trying to make then, and that I wish briefly to make now, is that the Welsh Grand Committee is entitled, under current Standing Orders, to sit as a Second Reading Committee. That is the crux of the matter. It could be used as a Liaison Committee with the National Assembly: a sounding board providing a fast-track procedure for legislation that the National Assembly wants to bring before the House without its being caught up in the timetable that inevitably clogs up work in this Parliament.
I recall the exchange that I had with the Chairman when it was suggested that the new Chamber in the Grand Committee Room could serve as a venue for Welsh debates. It does not matter where the Committee sits. I believe that that made the case for the Welsh Grand Committee. I took the view that it was important that we fought to retain the Welsh Grand Committee. I am pleased that the Government have sided with my party on the evidence that we and others gave that day. I believe that the Welsh Grand Committee still has an important role in the current settlement. I welcome paragraph 5 of the Government's response to the report. I agree that to suspend the Welsh Grand would be premature and possibly damaging. I share the Government's view that that forum is a useful mechanism for debating issues of particular interest to Wales.
Some of the more cynical in our midst might place a different construction on that. Curiously enough--speaking of cynics--it was put to me by a member of the lobby that this might enable central Government to reel back a bit; but I prefer to think that that is not the case, and that it is a contribution to devolution. I am not naive, but I genuinely believe that that is the right construction, and that the process will be assisted rather than impeded.
The question of a legislative platform for the National Assembly is vital. It is one of the core points. As others have observed, the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs engaged in a fruitful discussion with a panel of chairpersons of the various National Assembly Committees. We are graced by the presence of one of them today--my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Mon (Mr. Jones). The prevailing view seems to be that the Welsh Affairs Committee could become a conduit, or sounding board, for legislation, and that the Assembly might want that to happen.
We heard earlier that whatever legislation was introduced must be introduced at the behest of the National Assembly or the Scottish Parliament. That is
fine: I have no problem with it. Such action could focus on the primary legislation that was considered a priority by the Assembly, but it could also provide a useful mechanism for feedback from Westminster on the progress of primary legislation. It should be stressed, however, that the Welsh Affairs Committee could not be the sole route or interface for communication. I feel that the Welsh Grand Committee should perform that function as well, because, in my view, the situation requires a bolster of that kind. Meetings that I have had with Welsh Assembly Members of various political hues suggest to me that they and Welsh Members of Parliament unanimously want the relationship to succeed, in the interests of better governance in Wales.
The hon. Member for North Tayside (Mr. Swinney) made a point that impressed me greatly, but it seems to have escaped me now. No doubt, it will come back to me in a moment. His speech contained so many impressive points that it is not surprising that I missed out one or two.
Perhaps the most important of the report's recommendations for Wales is that there should be a new way of dealing with legislation relating exclusively to Wales. Instead of the current Second Reading debates on the Floor of the House, for most Bills of that kind, special Committees would be set up. If agreed, Bills would then proceed to Committee and to other stages. That would provide a fast-track system: Bills would not be clogged up in the procedures of this House.
The Procedure Committee rejected the suggestion that Second Reading should be taken in the Welsh Grand Committee, and I feel that that was a mistake. I think that I have made the point sufficiently. The Procedure Committee suggested that there should be an ad hoc Second Reading Committee containing at least 20 Welsh Members of Parliament. That implies that there might be a different political balance--that the Second Reading Committee might reflect party strengths in Wales, while the Committee stage Committee might reflect the strength of the Commons as a whole. That may give rise to concern.
The Government's response is careful and considered. I ask the Secretary of State for Scotland whether the words
I deal with two short matters of substance. One is the scope of future inquiries of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs. The obvious point is that the Select Committee's remit will be that of non-devolved areas that impact on Wales. It follows that the remit must be examined carefully and redefined. For example, if there were a problem to do with taxation, defence, social security or one of the other reserved matters, Welsh electors would not have the same rights via their
representatives and the respective Select Committee to scrutinise and to hold the Department responsible to account. That presents a case for broadening the Standing Orders. In fairness, the Procedure Committee suggested that, although that suggestion has not found favour, as yet anyway, with the Government. However, the tenor of the Leader of the House's speech was careful and balanced. To put it crudely, it was a wait-and-see speech. I should like to develop that theme further at another point.
There is no doubt that we need to look at that matter. We have talked about fairness for various constituent parts of the United Kingdom, but that point is crucial. I commend the letter of 14 October from the Chairman of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs to the Leader of the House as the right way forward. I have no doubt that it can be reconsidered at another point.
Therefore, the Procedure Committee's recommendation of a relaxation in that area is right. Of course, I do not agree with the Government's view, but, as I have said, I hope that the matter can be revisited fairly urgently. There will be an urgent need to redefine the working of the Select Committee if, as is suggested, it is to carry on working.
I am not saying that to perpetuate my membership of the Committee--I have other things to do--but it is in the best interests of our constituents; that is really what it is all about. As I have said, I am sure that the Leader of the House will be prepared to debate the matter at another point.
The other matter is the Government's correct belief, that Select Committees will play an important role in fostering good relations between Westminster and the respective devolved legislatures. In the words of the Government's response:
The Procedure Committee's view on joint meetings appears to be a little negative and not reflective of the views of Assembly Members and Members of the House of Commons, as far as I am aware. At paragraph 17, the Committee said:
"In appropriate cases, the leader of the delegation could agree to Ministers from the devolved administrations speaking for the UK in Council . . . and that they would do so with the full weight of the UK behind them".
My party and colleagues in the Scottish National party have been campaigning for that for a long time. It is a great step forward, but whether it happens is another matter. I hope that it will happen, if devolution in its true sense is to come about. I welcome the day when Scottish Ministers and Welsh Secretaries conduct affairs on the European mainland. Despite what the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) said in his redoubtable, forceful and eloquent way, as usual I do not agree with him.
"debating issues of particular interest to those parts of the UK"
envisage the possibility that the Welsh Grand Committee will become a debating chamber for particularly Welsh business. Can we consider strengthening it by giving it a role involving liaison with the Assembly, initiating Bills to be dealt with by this Parliament rather than relying on Government time or private Members' procedures? That might envisage a requirement on Government to introduce any Bills that are presented to them by the National Assembly. The Committee would surely be the forum for that.
"It is possible that they will also conduct inquiries in conjunction with Committees of the devolved legislatures into subjects for which responsibility is shared."
That makes sense. It will reflect the tenor of the useful recent meeting between the Select Committee and National Assembly Members in Cardiff.
"Committees should not hold formal meetings in conjunction with Members of the devolved legislatures without the express authority of the House and Members should be aware that there is no guarantee that their words enjoy the protection of Article IX of the Bill of Rights in any informal joint meetings."
That is a bit negative. Clearly, what is needed is for Standing Orders to be changed. I hope that we shall persuade the Leader of the House that a Standing Order change is necessary to foster good regular meetings and good relations with the devolved legislatures. The reference to privilege is clearly not insurmountable and can be cleared up with a little ingenuity.
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