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7.33 pm
Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde): I agree with my hon. Friend the Minister and the hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Mr. Stunell) that we cannot at this moment expect to have hard and fast rules concerning the responsibilities of the Assemblies, the Scottish Parliament and this Parliament or the representatives in those legislatures.
I say to the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton) that, like my hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Thomas), I fell off the edge of the list of speakers last Thursday. The hon. Gentleman's report is very fine. For example, I agree with paragraph 37, which argues for informal contacts between Members of the different Assemblies and Parliaments, and since 1 July I have argued that case to the Convenor of the Local Government Committee in the Edinburgh Parliament. We need "official interest" to be defined because there are responsibilities that, to my mind, are not mutually exclusive--for example, to the Scottish Parliament or this Parliament. By and large, I shall confine my remarks to Northern Ireland and Scotland.
A clearer groove is provided by paragraph (c) of the motion, which refers to a question that
When the First Minister addressed the Scottish Parliament on 1 July, he said that it had the right to amend some legislation enacted by this Parliament. My hon. Friend the Minister may not be familiar with section 12 of the 1968 Act, but may I use it to give a brief illustration of the Home Secretary's administrative powers? It allows social work directors to assist financially people in desperate need who face a real domestic emergency, and I have used it several times to help poverty-stricken constituents. I have approached my local social work department to argue that moneys should be given to such people.
We in this Parliament are changing that Scottish Act, but this is a grey area. The Immigration and Asylum Bill is obviously a responsibility of the Home Secretary, but I would have thought that those three Scottish Acts could be re-amended, despite what happens to the asylum legislation in this place. There will be conflicts and stresses between this Parliament, the Scottish Parliament and the two Assemblies, whenever the Northern Ireland Assembly gets off the mark.
The motion refers to questioning Ministers
I agree that we have to maintain compatibility and mutuality between those Acts of Parliament, but who am I to question about those elements of the Immigration and Asylum Bill--the Secretary of State for Scotland or the Home Secretary? I think that the Home Secretary is out of order in amending those Acts. If he is not, I sincerely hope that the Scottish Parliament will be able to amend the asylum legislation. This is an important issue, particularly as regards people in need. Whether we are discussing the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 or the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968, there are many grey areas. Ultimately, when legal challenges are made, those questions will have to be determined not by the judicial committee of the Privy Council, but by a constitutional court.
Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon):
The case that the hon. Gentleman makes in relation to Scotland is a lesser case with regard to Wales, because we are dealing with secondary rather than primary legislation. However, in interpreting ambiguous areas of primary or secondary education, the courts have reference to what has been said in this place, the Welsh Assembly or the Scottish Parliament. To that extent, if a conflict is possible, it is extremely important to know where authority lies.
Dr. Godman:
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Before we have a constitutional court, perhaps we need a constitutional committee to deal with those problems, which I believe arise with the Bill that is now in the other place. In addition to the informal contacts, which the hon. Member for Macclesfield mentions in paragraph 37 of his report, contact needs to be made between the Parliaments and Assemblies at a level below ministerial. Back Benchers should be able to discuss those matters with our colleagues in other Assemblies. If things go well in Northern Ireland--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. We cannot discuss Northern Ireland in the context of this motion. Moreover, the hon. Gentleman is going a little wide when he talks about liaison. I have listened carefully, because I know that he is trying to make a case in relation to the last part of the motion, but he should not stray wider than that.
Dr. Godman:
I am sincerely grateful for your advice, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I apologise for referring to Northern Ireland. I was simply going to say that we shall soon debate a similar motion if Senator Mitchell and those obdurate negotiators come to some agreement this week.
Mr. Alasdair Morgan (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale):
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the
Dr. Godman:
I could not agree more. As regards assisting people in need, we should be willing to trust the representatives in Edinburgh and Cardiff if they choose to implement legislation differently. We should accept that there will be differences.
Let me return to the question of concordats and the memorandum of understanding. I have an abiding interest in the fishing industry, which is where conflicts will arise. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mrs. Michie) and I have the honour of being honorary presidents of the Clyde Fishermen's Association. No one can challenge the fact that the Scottish fishing industry is far more important to Scotland than the English fishing industry is to England. Paragraph B3.12 on page 20 of the memorandum of understanding says:
"presses for action by UK ministers in areas in which they retain administrative powers."
The example I gave earlier was prompted by a challenge I made to my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary during the passage of the Immigration and Asylum Bill. I suggested that it is not up to this Parliament to amend exclusively Scottish Acts of Parliament through that legislation. We are in a grey area here, and I say to my hon. Friend the Minister that, this week, a Member of the Scottish Parliament has tabled two questions concerning the Home Secretary's decision to amend section 12 of the Social Work (Scotland) Act 1968 and sections in other Scottish Acts. Am I right to think that, although my right hon. Friend has administrative powers here, the Scottish Parliament has the power to amend the Immigration and Asylum Bill again, when it becomes an Act, in respect of three Scottish Acts?
"in areas in which they retain administrative powers."
25 Oct 1999 : Column 768
I have the right to question the Home Secretary on those matters, but do I have the right to question the Secretary of State for Scotland on the implementation of those clauses in the Immigration and Asylum Bill that are exclusively concerned with Scottish matters? To whom do I go?
I have tabled a question to the Home Secretary for answer next week on that very issue. Four or five months ago, I said to him that I thought he was acting ultra vires in respect of those Scottish Acts. Of course, they were passed by the House. The 1968 Act was put through by the late Willie Ross; it is a brilliant piece of legislation, but it has nothing whatever to do with the rest of the United Kingdom. It is a Scottish Act.
"Ministers and officials of the devolved administrations should have a role to play in relevant Council meetings, and other negotiations with EU partners."
I take it that we shall have a concordat on the fishing industry and other devolved matters, which will entail, among many other things, attendance at Fishery Council meetings in Brussels. However, I do not want to see a junior Minister there from the Edinburgh Parliament. Although my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) knows a thing or two about fishing, he will not be Minister for a lifetime. It is therefore important that clear guidelines are given.
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