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Mr. Brown: It is not a golden opportunity if it is not well founded in law, and the professional advice that I
have received is very clear. As for the broader question of meat and bonemeal, the pig sector has a genuine grievance, with which I intend to deal later in my speech. I have something quite extensive to say, and I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear with me until then.
Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire): I thank the Minister for giving way yet again. Does he realise that maintaining the ban on beef on the bone hopelessly undermines his negotiating stance in relation to the French? Backed up by idiotic Labour councils such as Coventry council, which has banned all beef products, it enabled the agricultural councillor at the French embassy, Mr. Jean-Jacques Benazit, to write to this week's edition of the Farmers Guardian invoking the precautionary principle because beef on the bone is banned in this country.
Mr. Brown: I shall have something to say about local authorities and beef later. As for a link between the ban on beef on the bone--which is at the extreme end ofthe precautionary measures in this country--and the date-based export scheme, no such link exists, because the date-based scheme relates to deboned beef. There is no question of any beef on the bone going into the export market through the scheme.
I can confirm again that I have received advice from the United Kingdom's chief medical officer, Professor Donaldson, that it would be safe to lift the ban for the purpose of retail sales, including sales through catering outlets. I have made it clear to the House repeatedly that I want to lift the ban as soon as I can, but I want to do so in an orderly way throughout the United Kingdom. That will require the consent of the devolved authorities that have competence in Scotland and Wales. I hope to be able to obtain their consent soon, and in any event before Christmas.
Mr. Oliver Letwin (West Dorset)
rose--
Mr. Nigel Jones (Cheltenham)
rose--
Mr. Brown:
I will give way to the hon. Members for West Dorset (Mr. Letwin) and for Cheltenham (Mr. Jones). After that, given the imposition of a 10-minute limit for speeches, I will make some progress in order to protect the time allowed to other Members.
Mr. Letwin:
I am grateful to the Minister, who has behaved with typical courtesy. Does he appreciate, however, that Conservative Members and many of our constituents are concerned with the timetable question? The Minister lifted our hearts when he spoke of November, but if what he is actually saying is that he has no means of protecting the industry against months, perhaps years, of legal wrangling, by the time that is resolved, many of our constituents will be out of agricultural production, and the nature of our countryside will have changed. Has the Minister nothing to say about dealing with that problem?
Mr. Brown:
With the greatest of respect, let me say that I think that the hon. Gentleman is overstating his case. Our remedy is through the institutions of the European Union. After all, the date-based export scheme is their scheme, and that is the right approach for us to take. All
Mr. Jones:
I thank the Minister for giving way. He has made some powerful comments, and I congratulate him on keeping his head during the crisis while many others have been losing theirs.
The Minister said that France was isolated. It is, within the European Union; but the United States of America is still imposing a ban on British beef. Is the Minister engaging in negotiations with the aim of getting the ban lifted in the United States? Which does he think will happen first, the French allowing in our meat or the Americans doing so?
Mr. Brown:
I do not want to set time scales, or to put events in an artificial order. I have regular bilateral meetings with our friends in the United States and with officials at the United States embassy here, and of course those matters are much discussed. Let me, however, say gently to the hon. Gentleman that the United States has some grievances about beef trade issues in regard to the European Union, and naturally we discuss those matters as well.
I recognise, and I know that the House will recognise, the real difficulties faced by agriculture and the wider rural economy as a result of the depressed level of farm incomes. In recent years, there has been a dramatic fall in those incomes, which has affected the whole industry but which is felt particularly in the livestock sector.
The reasons for the fall in farm incomes are well known: the strength of the pound; the implications of the BSE crisis for the beef sector, and BSE-related controls that have impacted on the whole of the livestock sector; and the loss of overseas markets with recession in the far east and collapse of the Russian economy.
As for the Government's response, we believe that there is a good case for a common agricultural policy in the European single market. However, as currently structured, the common agricultural policy does not serve our agriculture well. The Government's policy is to secure a more competitive and sustainable industry with a stronger market orientation. We want to reduce agriculture's reliance on subsidies based on production. We also want to encourage restructuring for long-term sustainability, and to promote development of real markets for our products, less distorted by the CAP. That was the philosophy behind the United Kingdom's support for the Agenda 2000 reform proposals.
The House should not underestimate the fact that the Agenda 2000 agreement represents an important step in moving the common agricultural policy in the right direction. The changes will help agriculture to meet the challenges of further trade liberalisation, including our ambitions for European Union enlargement and the upcoming World Trade Organisation round. A significant shift from price support to direct payments was agreed, and will reduce the economic distortions of the common agricultural policy.
We have also created an integrated European Union rural development policy. For the first time, measures for agri-environmental schemes, early retirement, marketing
and energy crops are providing within the CAP the basis for a welcome shift in emphasis, from production support to future environmental and rural economy measures.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York):
Within the framework of the CAP, and as trade barriers are lifted, does the Minister accept that meat hygiene charges are an additional burden for our farmers and a factor in making them less competitive? Other hon. Members havealready mentioned the United States model of farming. In recognition of the public safety aspect of meat hygiene, the United States Government pays meat hygiene charges, which amount to $800 million annually. Might the United Kingdom Government be minded to go down that route, and recognise that, as a public safety measure, meat hygiene should be a charge on the public purse?
Mr. Brown:
The Government cannot fully go down that route as, like other European Union members, we are obliged to recover some of the costs from the industry. However, some issues are unique to the United Kingdom, such as the recently created BSE safeguards. I shall say something about those issues in a moment. We are also looking very hard at the operation of the Meat Hygiene Service, about which I shall also have something to say. Although the hon. Lady is on to a very strong point, the answer is in the detail. It is not possible for me or for any Minister to waive all the charges.
Sir Geoffrey Johnson Smith (Wealden):
Does that mean that there is no question of compensation being offered? I ask that because, as we know, the United Kingdom egg industry is subject to much closer and more rigorous examination than the egg industry of any other western European country. When a flock ceases being productive, for example, all the cages must be replaced, and that is a very expensive proposition. Bearing in mind the extra burden borne by the United Kingdom egg production industry, is the right hon. Gentleman telling us that there is no question of compensation to help them overcome that additional cost, so that we may at least be assured of a good supply of healthy eggs? I recall that, when it came to grubbing out apple orchards, there was some compensation for apple growers.
Mr. Brown:
The right hon. Gentleman is quite right to talk about the difficulties of the egg and the poultry meat sector. As he will know, the European Union regime for both the poultry and the pig sector is a light one--in other words, it does not provide any avenue for specific support payments of the type that he described. It also--this is perhaps less well understood, but is right--prevents member states from introducing new egg regimes of their own. I shall say something later about how we should deal with those circumstances. Nevertheless, the right hon. Gentleman is on to a good point, which he raises at the right time. There is no question but that the sector is going through very difficult times.
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