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Mr. Gill: I have listened carefully to what the Minister has said about labelling, as I did when he addressed the National Farmers Union's great British food conference yesterday morning. Does he regret that while the House has the power to make legislation on animal welfare, we cannot legislate to make it mandatory for all producers to label British products as produced in this country? What does he intend to do about that? I see him going into a minefield as he tries to legislate in other ways that would avoid stating so categorically that a product was made and produced in Britain.
Mr. Brown: If the hon. Gentleman reads the statement that I have issued, which I am happy to make publicly available, he will find that I am trying to tiptoe through that minefield. I support the MLC-assured British labels, which give quality assurance. I support the NFU's idea of a kitemark. I am clamping down on misleading labelling, including on pictures or even product titles that imply that a product is British when it is not. Guidelines have been issued to trading standards officers and it is up to them to enforce the law through the courts. Tightening the guidelines to trading standards officers shows the Government's clear intention to ensure that consumers are not misled.
Mr. Curry: When the right hon. Gentleman has finished his personal boycott and can once again set foot in a Carrefour supermarket in France, will he look at the beef on sale and notice that it is all labelled "ne, eleve et abattu en France"--born, reared and slaughtered in France? Would not that be a good model for British labelling? Is it legal?
Mr. Brown: There are all sorts of tempting replies to that. I am happy to look for the Meat and Livestock Commission's label in the shops and to purchase to the assured British standards in which I have confidence. I know what the beef is being fed, for example.
Mr. Hayes: When the right hon. Gentleman considers labelling, will he take into account the wholesale, catering and processing industries, among others, as well as the retail industry, which are consuming more and more pigmeat and should be brought into the examination? It is one thing if people buy pigmeat for themselves from the shops, but if they are consuming it in another context it is difficult for them to ascertain its origins. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Select Committee on Agriculture looked into those matters and those industries are the growth sectors for the purchase of pigmeat.
Secondly, when the right hon. Gentleman looks into marketing, will he consider the fiscal regimes that are faced by farmers? It is not merely pig but arable farmers who are in desperate straits. In many competitor countries,
the fiscal regimes and hidden subsidies offered make it easy for farmers to borrow and to invest in marketing and other areas of business expansion.
Mr. Brown:
On the second range of issues, if we believe that the European Commission ought to look into some matter, we draw it to its attention and it acts on our requests. On the catering sector, the hon. Gentleman is right--almost one third of all UK food is now consumed through catering outlets rather than retail sales and preparation at home. I will pay particular attention to catering in the continuing talks that I am having with the industry--the retail and catering sectors and those who supply caterers. The hon. Gentleman, although perhaps for these purposes I may call him my hon. Friend, is on to a good point and I hope that my verification officer will also be able to pay particular attention to that area.
Mr. Tom King (Bridgwater):
I think that the right hon. Gentleman has completed the pig package that he trailed in the House last week, when he said that he would have something substantial to say. What forecast have his officials given him of the likely value to the industry of the measures that he has announced today? I told pig producers in my constituency that an important package was coming. The background there is that they are on a deadline and I think that substantial producers are about to shut down. If this is the total package, we are on the brink of a major collapse of the pig industry. What is plan B? Other countries would have such a plan and would not allow their industries to go like this. Among other things, the collapse of the sector would be a huge setback for welfare in the pig industry.
Mr. Brown:
I entirely agree about the setback for animal welfare if we lose a significant part of the industry. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I am constrained by the state aid rules. I am trying to do everything that I can within the rules and the law, but we will get those in our domestic industry through only if we get them that premium in the marketplace for the quality product that they produce. That is the only way forward. We have to get consumers on our side. We need to market our way out of the problem. I cannot invent supply-side measures to supplement the common agricultural policy because that would not be lawful.
I have no forecast of the impact of these measures, but I appeal to every hon. Member to try his or her best, as I am trying my best, to get the industry through.
Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury):
We must also get the supermarkets on side. Will the Minister explain a little more about the interface in competition policy between his Department and the Department of Trade and Industry, with so many of our pig farmers in particular on the brink of bankruptcy? Supermarkets are in a positive frame of mind, but they have to a large extent been responsible for the type of agricultural production on which they have insisted from farmers in the name of the consumer. They underestimate their role in creating a demand for different products. If we want to create a better value product for
Mr. Brown:
That is exactly why we are making extra public money available to encourage marketing and the explanation of the specific benefits--welfare benefits and quality--that sit alongside the domestic industry. I hope that retailers will be willing to help. We have a good story to tell and it is one that the public wanted us to tell. We should say so loud and clear. The Government have a responsibility, but there is also a responsibility on each and every one of us as individuals.
Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall):
I congratulate the Minister on this new form of Question Time that he is instituting. Seriously, does he accept that there has to be a plan B, as the right hon. Member for Bridgwater (Mr. King) said? It will not be enough to market or label our way out of the pig crisis as it is far too deep for that--it is an emergency and one that none of us has experienced before. I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman reads carefully the Hansard report of the debate to which his right hon. Friend the Minister of State, the Member for Gateshead, East and Washington, West (Ms Quin) replied yesterday, when a number of hon. Members put specific questions. At one meeting with sector representatives on 5 October, he said that there was a real chance not merely of Government but of European Union funding in particular circumstances when public health was at risk. That is the situation that faces the pig sector because the BSE spillover into the sector has caused it huge additional costs. That is the principal reason why pig farmers in my constituency and in many others that are represented here today are going to the wall as the right hon. Gentleman speaks.
Mr. Brown:
I want to do everything that I can to help and I will not close any door until it is shut so firmly that even I cannot open it again. However, I must not hold out the prospect of hope where that does not exist. Any state help to the industry would almost certainly be struck down by the EU as an unlawful state aid.
Mr. Brown:
Because other people do not do it either. The consequences would not only be that we would have to repay the money--we would have to reclaim it from the industry, which would really impose an extra burden.
Mr. Brown:
I will give way, but then hon. Members must allow me to make some progress because we are eating into the time of other hon. Members.
Mr. James Paice (South-East Cambridgeshire):
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain the difference between paying public compensation for specified offal removal in pig abattoirs, which costs about £5 per pig and is done on a public health basis, and the compensation that Belgian farmers got for the dioxin crisis?
Mr. Brown:
That is not the cost, but the MLC estimate of everything involved in the new meat and bonemeal
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