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Dr. Lynne Jones: Does my right hon. Friend agree that people who suffer from mental illness find it difficult to get a job because of the stigma associated with that problem?

Mr. Clarke: My hon. Friend is right, and Mind makes that point elsewhere in its briefing. I make these points in the knowledge that my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench are listening, and all of them have been helpful to me on constituency cases in the past. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and all my hon. Friends on the Front Bench have responded commendably on individual constituency cases. However, that does not mean that we should not get the Bill absolutely right before we send it back to another place. That is also the view of the National Association of Citizens Advice Bureaux.

Before the election, I was proud to campaign up and down the country, in my shadow role, on the Labour party's manifesto pledges to Britain's 8 million disabled people. Today, I have to say in all candour that I am worried about the gulf that has developed between disability organisations and a Government whom I am happy to support. That development could have been avoided, and I am convinced that it is still not too late to bring both sides together in

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partnership, as they have been on almost every other issue to do with disability over the past two years. That would benefit the Government and disabled people.

What are the disability organisations saying today? I take no pleasure in reading the view of the Royal National Institute for Deaf People, which has stated:

"Unless the Government goes significantly further in its concessions to this Bill, its overall record towards disabled people will be permanently tarnished."

The Disability Benefits Consortium, which represents more than 250 disability organisations covering our 8 million disabled people, has called the Government's position on these narrow issues "morally repugnant". I find that deeply saddening. It is easy to dismiss newspapers, and especially leading articles in The Guardian, but in the light of all the Government's other splendid achievements on disability it is genuinely worrying when that newspaper can say that

"Ministers should not be robbing the poor to help the very poor".

I know that that view is widely shared.

This debate is not about bringing down the Government, nor is it about defeating the Bill. The Government will still get the Bill through in time for its implementation date, which I understand is still April 2001. The worst scenario would be that, as happened with the Bill that became the European Parliamentary Elections Act 1999, the measure would go straight into the next Session of Parliament in a matter of weeks, and be given Royal Assent under the Parliament Act 1911. However, we plead with the Government to take our concerns on board.

5.45 pm

Mr. Rooker: I hope that I did not misunderstand, but my right hon. Friend mentioned the Parliament Act 1911. That legislation can be used to push a Bill through the House on a fast-track basis only if the Bill takes the same form as it took when it was introduced originally. Therefore, if that mechanism were used, none of the changes that we propose today--nor any of the amendments that have been accepted in Committee, on Report or in another place--would be included.

We must knock on the head the idea that anything can be fast-tracked through and recognise that, in the eventuality to which my right hon. Friend refers, stakeholder pensions would not be in place before the next election. The Parliament Act does not work in the way described by my right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke). The proof of that, as he will know, is that the War Crimes Bill had to go through the House in 1991 without any amendment. The reality, as the Clerks will confirm, is that the Parliament Act cannot be used to push through the amended Bill.

Mr. Clarke: As I said earlier, I have enormous respect for my hon. Friend, but I spent most of the afternoon with the Clerks. The advice that they gave to me is the same as that which I am giving the House. If my hon. Friend will forgive me for the moment, I shall stand by the advice that the Clerks gave me.

However, there is no need for the Bill to spill over into the next Session. The Government are the managers of their own business. They can get the Bill through if, as I

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recommend, they involve themselves in dialogue with those Labour party members--our Friends--who are in another place.

This debate is about asking Parliament to accept that it is not beyond the wit of modern, sophisticated, inclusive Government to reach agreement in another place with rebels such as Lords Ashley, Morris and Barnett. Jack Ashley, Alf Morris and Joel Barnett are hardly three closet militants determined to wreck everything that the Government set out to achieve. There is no reason why a reasonable outcome to the debate--which is surely what we all seek--cannot be achieved.

I regret to have to say it, but the truth is that there is no popular support for the Government's position on these particular issues. There is, however, support for the rest of the Bill and for the Government's many achievements on disability. It is not as though we are in a dispute about a crucial manifesto commitment. No pledge was made about incapacity benefit. That benefit is worth £66.75 a week, but for poor people that amount represents a fortune, a fact to which many of my constituents will attest. Our decision is therefore absolutely crucial to them.

Even now, I plead with the Government and the House to give serious thought to the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Berry). I sincerely believe that they offer a real chance of a solution that could so easily unite the Labour party and restore the confidence of our people in the role of Parliament and in the democratic process.

Mr. Andrew George (St. Ives): I shall be brief, given the large number of hon. Members who wish to speak in the little time that remains. I shall confine my remarks to our concern about the Government's response to Lords amendment No. 46, which would continue severe disablement allowance.

The existence of a safety net for the most vulnerable is a matter of fundamental principle for Liberal Democrat Members. We sought and failed to find justification for the proposals in the Bill in the Labour party's pledge card or in its election manifesto. In the Government's much-trumpeted and proper commitment to challenge the causes of social exclusion we were unable to find any justification for the abolition of severe disablement allowance.

The proposal does not modernise the benefit system. It removes an essential safety net for a small but significant number of people. I am sure that Ministers are aware that, although income support will cover many people who will be unable to take up severe disablement allowance when it is abolished, many people will fall through the net. Women and carers will be especially hard hit, as they often are unable to build up the level of contributions necessary to secure incapacity benefit.

If the Government are concerned about low-income groups, benefits should be aimed at those groups. We need to recognise that women, carers and people in part-time work will find themselves in difficulty as a result of the proposals. People who become disabled and who previously worked as lollipop men or women, or who work at the supermarket checkout or as part-time caretakers at the local school, are often unable to achieve sufficient insurance contributions to secure incapacity benefit. At least in those cases the safety net of severe disablement allowance still applies.

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The Government, thankfully, take the view that young people under 20 who are entitled to SDA now and in the future will have that support passported into incapacity benefit come their 20th birthday. Young carers looking after elderly or disabled relatives or anyone else who receives invalid care allowance will not be treated in the same way as those who have paid national insurance contributions and are also receiving the allowance. Young people who were previously entitled to SDA when they were under 20 are entitled to receive incapacity benefit when they get older but young carers are not. That anomaly must be ironed out.

Such examples have been brought to the Government's attention throughout the passage of the Bill, but they have failed to respond. Either the Government do not believe that such cases exist, or they do not care. We believe that there should be a safety net, but there are still gaps in it. The Government must sort out which side of the line they are on. This is a fundamental principle. Many severely disabled people--who have to be 80 per cent. disabled--will fall through the net and be considerably worse off.

We are told that adults receiving SDA will not be affected. Well, not yet--the Government will deal with them individually. Many people on SDA are worried by the Bill's message. Given the experience of the all work test and the other hurdles that they will no doubt have to overcome, they fear that their SDA will be taken away from them. Ministers may well shake their heads and say that that is not the intention. However, disabled people believe that the Government want to do away with SDA as quickly as possible, and that individual cases will be dealt with later.

It seems prophetic. First the Government came for the asylum seekers; then the Home Secretary sought to make scapegoats of the travellers, and now we fear that the Government will go for disabled people. We look forward to hearing the voice of conscience in this debate. Ministers may consider that their Back Benchers are an electoral liability, but they will be an electoral asset in future. On this issue, the Government need to be saved from themselves.

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