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Mr. Sam Galbraith (Strathkelvin and Bearsden): With regard to the closing remarks of the hon. Member for St. Ives (Mr. George), every time I hear a politician talk about conscience, I run for my sick bag. We are all trying to act for the best, and no one has a monopoly on conscience.
This is a highly emotional subject and hon. Members on both sides of the House have made detailed contributions. The arguments seem to be a cross between metaphysics and statistics and, as I know little about either subject, I shall stick to the principles involved.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke) said that if the benefit were related to a pension it would somehow stop people having a pension and make them claim benefit. Nothing could be further from the truth. I agree that facts are not available to prove the case, so we must stick to opinions.
I do not usually use myself as an example, but I should like to tell the House something from my own experience. I do so because the hon. Member for Northavon (Mr. Webb) asked what a 54-year-old man with a disability would do if he had to give up his job. There is no need to hypothesise--I am that man. I have lived with
a disability for 10 years since I had a lung transplant for respiratory problems. The idea that my pension may be taken into account when considering this benefit and that I would reduce my pension contribution is utter nonsense. On the contrary, I would increase my contributions to accommodate my disability. I say that from my experience, as a person who fulfils the hypothetical case, and I am only one. The hon. Gentleman was trying to make a principle fit a hypothetical case, but I am a real case.
Mr. Webb:
The hon. Gentleman speaks from experience, which I respect. Might I suggest, however, that he sacks his personal financial adviser? He should be putting his money into a vehicle that is not means tested by the Government--any form of saving other than a pension. As people realise that that is how the system works, it will create a distortion. Is that desirable?
Mr. Galbraith:
As my friends know, I know absolutely nothing about money or finance. The Prime Minister said that he never considered me for a Treasury job, and that was probably a good idea.
So the point about my pension being taken into account when considering such a benefit must be nonsense. The idea that the contributory principle is inviolate and must never be touched is no longer true, although it may have been true in the early days of the welfare state.
Dr. Lynne Jones:
I respect what my hon. Friend has told us from his experience and his proposals to deal with it. If he does not accept that means testing changes behaviour, I suggest that he reads the report of the social justice commission. It explains that means testing is not the way to ensure that people in need get the benefit they need.
Mr. Galbraith:
That is another issue. We are discussing whether consideration should be given to other factors when making decisions on benefit. Let me knock on the head once and for all the idea that pensions should not be taken into consideration, and that if they are, people will reduce their contributions. Nothing could be further from the truth, so let me lay that ghost once and for all.
I have another area of expertise to bring to the debate. It has been said that the all work test, which involves medical criteria, should be used as a better policing gateway, and I agree with that. But the tests are not rocket science; they are not even purely objective. I have done many such tests and they are quite subjective. We must consider all the possible mechanisms, without regarding the doctors' criteria as the only or final ones.
Finally, I wish to deal with the issue of years without work. My right hon. Friend the Member for Coatbridge and Chryston gave some examples, but I can come at them from the opposite direction. Are people who worked for 10 years but not for the past 20 entitled to the benefit? According to my hon. Friend they are, according to me surely they are not. We have to make a judgment. Those are difficult calls to make and I agree that we do not always get them right.
It is not an exact science, but we have to make a judgment and set the dividing lines. We are confronted by dividing lines throughout our lives, and it is difficult for those who fall on the wrong side of them. It seems unfair because they are close to those who fall on the other side of the line. However, we have to make such judgments. I ask all hon. Members to consider that when they make their decisions tonight, and to not get lost in a fog of principle that does not apply.
Miss Julie Kirkbride (Bromsgrove):
I shall speak briefly, because I suspect that Ministers are more likely to listen to the arguments--with which I agree--of Labour Members who oppose the Government's proposal than to those of Conservative Members.
Many of us find it astonishing that the Government's welfare reform proposals will cut the benefits of disabled people and widows. People who voted in a Labour Government at the last election did not suspect that those categories would be the target of the Government's welfare reform proposals. The Government spend more on social security than on health and education combined, but the increase in spending does not benefit those whom many people would consider to be the most deserving--the disabled and widows.
My hon. Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts) set out our reasons for opposing the Government's so-called reform of incapacity benefit, in contrast to a few months ago when, in a similar debate, we supported the Government's measures on lone parent benefit. My hon. Friend pointed out that, when we introduced incapacity benefit in 1995, we considered means testing but rejected it because we believed it to be unfair. We continue to believe that.
We would all hate to retire before retirement age--some years hence for some of us, not so far away for others--and have to rely on incapacity benefit. Our future is part of the great lottery of life, but none of us wants that to happen. The insurance principle of making a contribution and benefiting from it is important and should be maintained in incapacity benefit.
With due deference to the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden (Mr. Galbraith), the Government's proposals will damage the principle of saving for a pension because those who make provision for themselves will be less eligible for state benefits. When I bang on doors in Bromsgrove, I am confronted by people who feel resentful because they have saved and receive little or nothing, while their neighbours, who did not make the same provision for themselves, receive all the state benefits. They represent a further tranche of seething resentment, which is felt by many whom the Government do not benefit. While I sympathise with the hon. Member for Strathkelvin and Bearsden for what happened to him, Members of Parliament retire on considerably more than the £8,000 a year for which the Government are introducing a means test. That makes a great difference to our financial status in later life. It is different for those who retire on very little.
The right hon. Member for Coatbridge and Chryston (Mr. Clarke) quoted an article in The Guardian, which stated that the Government's welfare cuts made the poor pay for the very poor. That is true of the proposals that we are considering tonight. People who are forced, through disability, to retire early on a pension with many years of life--albeit disabled life--ahead will have their right to incapacity benefit truncated by the means test. That is unfair because they live on modest incomes, if the £8,000 a year trigger for the means test is correct. Even if the figure is a few thousand pounds out, it is a low income on which to retire for a long time.
Although we approve of the Government's promise not to raise the top rate of income tax, if I were a Labour Member, I would find it galling that relatively poor people are being made to pay for very poor people's benefits while the richer members of the community are not being asked to increase their contribution. That happens because the Government are increasing the social security bill. The reforms are unnecessary, as is increasing the social security budget. If I were a Labour Member, I would consider disgraceful the Government's method of introducing benefit cuts for some people.
Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley):
The Labour party fought the last election on the slogan, "Things can only get better". Does my hon. Friend agree that many disabled people, whose benefits will be removed, will be aghast at what is happening this evening? At the next election, disabled people, who have been so badly let down, will give Labour Members short shrift. Things can only get better unless one happens to be disabled.
Miss Kirkbride:
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I shall underline it by telling the House about a telephone call that I received recently from a lady in Bromsgrove who worked for 30 years and is now on incapacity benefit. I was glad to be able to reassure her that the Government's iniquitous proposals will not affect her because they do not apply to existing claimants. [Hon. Members: "Tell the truth."] Conservative Members tell the truth, unlike the Government.
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