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Mr. Forth: Where does the national loans fund get the money from?
Mr. Hill: I propose to come to that point in due course. It was an issue that the right hon. Gentleman raised, and I shall answer it in the proper order.
It is most important that the GLA and the functional bodies should be able to obtain funds for their capital programmes from the public works loans commissioners.
That will ensure that those bodies can achieve the best value in borrowing for capital purposes by providing them, in common with all other local authorities, with an alternative to borrowing at open market rates.
Questions were asked about the identity of the public works loans commissioners. They are appointed by the Treasury, by royal warrant under the Public Works Loans Act 1946, on the advice of the Prime Ministerin consultation with the Chancellor. The current commissioners are listed in the 124th annual report of the Public Works Loan Board, published by HMSO this year, a copy of which is in the Library.
However, before the right hon. Member for Bromley hastens--
Mr. Forth:
Bromley and Chislehurst.
Mr. Hill:
I am sorry, I meant the right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst. Before he hastens to the Library to check that information, may I deal with the other questions raised by Opposition Members?
I was asked how much money was involved. That entirely depends on how much the functional bodies wish to borrow--[Hon. Members: "Ah."]--and on how much the public works loans commissioners decide to lend. How will it be spent? It will be spent on the public purposes defined by bodies such as Transport for London, the London development agency and others. Those functional bodies, and the GLA, can borrow up to the amount for which they have credit approvals available.
The right hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst, having been a distinguished education Minister in his time, will undoubtedly have dipped into the national loans fund from time to time. As a former Minister, he will certainly know that the functional bodies to which such loans are granted have credit approvals available. Such credit approvals as are available are subject to the scrutiny of Ministers. Indeed, they are dependent on ministerial approval. I hope that that answers the question.
Mr. Bercow:
I am perplexed by the explanation the Minister has just given. Can he confirm whether a local
Mr. Hill:
The hon. Gentleman is right to say that I have the honour and privilege of representing the south of Lambeth, an area which he represented briefly in the early 1990s. Under the Bill, there is no question of a local authority taking such a loan. However, in answer to the broader question, I confirm that £6 billion a year is lent to local authorities by the PWLB and the outstanding debt is currently about £45 billion.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
Sir Sydney Chapman (Chipping Barnet):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the business statement earlier today, the Leader of the House said that next Monday's business would include the remaining consideration of the Lords amendments to the Greater London Authority Bill, followed by the guillotine motion on another Bill. She did not say when she intended that the guillotine should fall on the first Bill. It would be helpful to me and, I am sure, to other hon. Members if we were told whether it will be at 7 o'clock or 10 o'clock. Whichever it is, it is a scandalously short time in which to examine 820 amendments.
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
We cannot pursue business questions at this stage in the afternoon and we must proceed with the matter before the House.
The Minister for Housing and Planning (Mr. Nick Raynsford):
I beg to move,
Mr. Wilshire:
I am grateful to the Minister for that explanation. However, when I hear someone talk about a tax-neutral transfer, it suggests to me that tax will be payable although it will be the person receiving whatever is transferred who pays it, rather than the person making the transfer. Even though the transfer is described as tax-neutral, somebody will have to pay tax. How much tax are we talking about? Someone must have worked out what will be transferred, so it would be helpful to know how much tax will be due. I assume that the tax to be paid will be corporation tax at the normal rate that all businesses pay, and I hope that the Minister will confirm that. Then we will know roughly how much somebody will have to pay.
As I understand it, when the resolution refers to "bodies or persons", it is talking about public bodies and public persons, although I am not sure what a public person is. In any case, the activity will take place in the public sector. If I am correct, the public body or public persons who have to pay the corporation tax once they have assumed the liability will have to get that money from somewhere. Again, I would be most grateful if the Minister would confirm that, once the bodies or persons have been given a tax liability, they will have some form of precepting power--that is, that once they know how much tax they must pay, the bodies or persons will send the matter back to the GLA, which will raise council tax to meet the bill.
If my analysis is correct, will the Minister say how much extra council tax will be payable by the people within the GLA area, so as to give effect to the resolution, when and if the House passes it?
Mr. Forth:
Although in one sense I am grateful to the Minister for Housing and Planning for taking the initiative and giving the briefest of explanations about this rather complex matter, I am also rather puzzled. That same Minister told us earlier that he was here only in some slightly odd advisory capacity, that he was no longer the Minister responsible for the substance of the measure that we are considering today, and that he had no knowledge of or input into the amendments tabled today. I am therefore surprised that he has come to the Dispatch Box
Mr. Bercow:
My right hon. Friend paints a very depressing picture of the Government's lack of respect for the institution of the House of Commons. If the Minister's position is as my right hon. Friend has described, is he not about as much use to our deliberations today as a bicycle without a wheel?
Mr. Forth:
My point is that I am genuinely confused about today's proceedings. The Minister did us the courtesy earlier of explaining why he was not responsible for the Bill and how he had had no part in the amendments under consideration. Now, however, he appears at the Dispatch Box as a Minister of the Crown and explains a key element of the Bill to the House.
We must get clear in our minds the relationship between the two Ministers--the Minister for Housing and Planning, and the Under-Secretary of State for the Environment, Transport and the Regions, the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr. Hill)--who are now sitting on the Front Bench. Who knows what about what, and who does not? Who has responsibility for what, and who has not? As I pointed out earlier, the Minister for Housing and Planning is playing a key role in a political campaign outside the House, on behalf of someone who has a direct interest--
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. The right hon. Gentleman must make it clear to the House how his remarks relate to the Ways and Means resolution.
Mr. Forth:
That is quite simple. The Minister for Housing and Planning was the Minister who tried to explain the Bill when he set out his role today. I am offering him the chance to give a final explanation to the House before he resorts to silence--but I see that the hon. Member for Ilford, South (Mr. Gapes) wants to tell us.
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Greater London Authority Bill, it is expedient to authorise--
(a) the payment out of the National Loans Fund of any sums required to enable the Public Works Loans Commissioners to make loans to the Greater London Authority or any functional body, within the meaning of the Act; and
(b) the payment of sums into the National Loans Fund.1.42 pm
That, for the purposes of any Act resulting from the Greater London Authority Bill, it is expedient to authorise the making of provision for or in connection with the imposition of charges to corporation tax (including corporation tax on chargeable gains) on bodies or persons to which property, rights or liabilities are transferred or granted by or under the Act.
This is a technical matter, but, lest I should be misinterpreted, I shall briefly explain for the benefit of the House why it is required. It is needed to authorise the tax-neutral transfer of property, rights and liabilities being made under the Bill. We will consider the clauses that will effect the transfers in the course of our consideration.
1.43 pm
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