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Mr. Simon Hughes: The hon. Member for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire) has given some wise words of caution. The first days of the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament gave those bodies no good publicity because all they appeared to discuss was salaries, costs and so on. There is a wider issue here about the management of public money paid in salaries, expenses and pensions. I understand the implications: this would take us down the road of public sector pay control for all public bodies.

I have three specific questions for the Minister, but I flag it up that devolving to each body in the public sector the power to make its own pay arrangements provides a large opportunity for actions that produce great criticism. I have checked with my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Mr. Burstow) that my understanding is right. Local government, for example, is now much more free to make its own arrangements. The danger of that whole process is that, if the chief executive of the next door authority is paid £120,000, we have to pay the same to our chief executive, and then the members will decide that they have to pay themselves a decent amount because they will not otherwise receive anything like the same as their chief executive. The sums never go down--the process never works in the other direction.

Mr. Wilshire: The hon. Gentleman thoughtfully referred to public sector pay restraint, but I hope that he

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can see the difference between a debate about elected members and one about paid officials. That is the only distinction that I should like him to draw.

Mr. Hughes: I understand that, but I ask the hon. Gentleman to accept that, for example, when a person is considering whether to be a full-time councillor, and--in this instance--a full-time council leader, he or she might ask, "How much would that pay me, and how much are the people who work with me paid?"

I have three questions. First, I accept the Minister's proposition that, in effect, we should start with the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review Body as to what the salaries of the mayor and Assembly members should be. That is the proper way to determine their salaries, and I am not against the idea that the salaries should continue thus to be determined. I do not know whether I have the authority to say that--it is a personal view.

One relevant issue that has been recorded with the review body by London local government leaders, cross-party, is that whatever amount is decided should reflect those aspects that are particular to living, working and serving in the capital city. The amount should reflect, first, the cost of living and travelling in London; and secondly, it should be comparable with that received by people who do comparable jobs. We want the mayor to be worthy of the city, but if he or she chooses not to take their salary, that is their responsibility. However, we should consider how much they are paid compared with mayors of other great European cities--also how large an electorate they represent, what their work load will be, and so on.

That raises some difficult questions, because if one is on the top-up list in London, one is part of a group of people who represent the whole of London, but that should not mean that one can expect a salary that is X times more than someone who represents a particular constituency. Representations have been made to the salaries review body, and I hope that the points that apply specifically to London will be taken properly into account.

My second question does not seem to have been answered thus far. Amendment No. 13 is headed:


It deals with the fact that the dual mandate is not precluded. My understanding is that one could be a Member of Parliament and a member of the Assembly, or a councillor and a member of the Assembly. I accept that, and I support the idea that one should not be able to accumulate salary after salary and expenses after expenses. However, behind that amendment is the question of whether people are expected to be full time or part time. For example, if there is to be a deduction for someone is a Southwark councillor and a member of the Greater London Assembly, why should there not also be a deduction if that person has a private salary?

There is one answer to that question that I can understand, but I do not think that it is sufficient. People who are not doing a full-time job should perhaps expect a reduction if they have other income. That point also applies to the debates about our costs in this place.

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Will the Minister consider whether my third question could be dealt with under secondary legislation? Amendment No. 12 includes the provision:


Under a normal understanding of the drafting, that would allow, at least in theory, for a different salary to be paid to everybody in the Assembly, because everyone would be doing a different job--chairing different committees, sub-committees and so on. It cannot be right to give great discretion to the Government of the day to determine the salaries of different people so differentially. I am not suggesting that that is in the Government's mind, but Government must be seen to act impartially. I want to ensure that the wording does not allow abuse of the system, with some people getting a good deal, while others get a less good deal.

Mr. Randall: May I offer the Minister a cautionary tale with regard to people setting their own salaries and allowances? In the London borough of Hillingdon, councillors enjoy the second lowest allowances in London. All the parties have got together to try to increase them and to bring them more in line with those of other boroughs. However, it is a time of financial constraint in the borough and the subject is regarded by the public as very poor for the status of councillors. Week after week, the Uxbridge Gazette is full of letters saying that the councillors should show self-restraint.

6.15 pm

I fear that, as the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes) said, the new Assembly will get off to a bad start if the first weeks are taken up with wrangling over salaries, whether they should be means-tested, and whether there should be a greater deduction for a Southwark councillor because he gets more or less than one from Hillingdon. Thus there is a whole Pandora's box, which will not bode well for the first days of the Assembly.

May I ask the Minister another question, as I may not have been clear enough when I spoke on the previous amendment? Why could this matter not have been addressed in Standing Committee, when we had plenty of time to deal with it? Why has it arisen now, when we are in a bit of a rush?

Mr. Raynsford: With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall start by responding to the last question. The hon. Member for Uxbridge (Mr. Randall) will recall from our debates in Committee that various stages had to be gone through before the Government could incur expenditure on certain items. Before Second Reading, we were not entitled to incur expenditure on those items. We have now progressed beyond that. It was not, however, possible to include in the initial stages of the Bill the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review Board, which we could not commission to undertake that work until we had the sanction and cover to do so.

A number of those processes have, of necessity, taken place later than I would, ideally, have liked, but the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that is simply the mechanics of introducing a new procedure of this nature.

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We are very much committed to the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review Board. We asked it to look into the question of both salaries and pensions, and it will be on its recommendations that the Secretary of State will set the arrangements that will begin the process.

On salaries, the fear is that the first days of the GLA will be overshadowed by decisions being taken by Assembly members on their own salaries. That fear can be allayed by my saying that the Secretary of State will take the decision on the initial occasion. It will therefore be the Government's decision. However, it is not right that an autonomous body--a strategic authority for London--should be entirely precluded from having any responsibility in these matters in future years. The model that we propose is that the SSRB will be required to report periodically on those matters.

Mr. Randall: Will there be any indication of the salary on or around the election date, because we shall all be asked that question on the doorsteps?

Mr. Raynsford: Indeed. We hope that the SSRB will report to the Government next month. The Government certainly want those recommendations, whatever they are--the decision will be taken by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State--to be made public well before the election.

In the first instance, the SSRB will make recommendations. It will be required to report periodically on those matters to the GLA, and the GLA will have to have regard to the SSRB's recommendations before it takes its final decisions. As I said, it would not be right to create a framework in which the GLA has no discretion at all. As a responsible body, it should have the ability to set salaries and pensions for its members. We are dealing now only with the salaries of the mayor and Assembly members, not with those of staff. We believe that the matter should be dealt with within an ethical framework, which requires the GLA to have regard to the SSRB's advice. If it departs without good reason from that advice, it would certainly be open to challenge, and some people would no doubt consider mounting such a challenge. I hope that those safeguards reassure hon. Members who are concerned about this provision.

I shall now deal with the points raised by the hon. Member for Southwark, North and Bermondsey (Mr. Hughes). It will be up to the Senior Salaries Review Board to consider what London costs should be taken into account in its recommendations. It will be difficult for the board to find posts comparable to those of mayor and Assembly member, because to the best of my knowledge there are none. The post of mayor is unique, and there are no other assembly members in local government with a strategic role and a salary. It may, therefore, be difficult for that aspiration to be met.

It is proper that people should not be paid from the public purse for performing two functions without an abatement of their salaries. That is the crucial point. Abatement of salaries does not apply to people who have a private income from another source. However, an abatement provision is a proper safeguard for public money.


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