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1.10 am
The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr. Graham Stringer): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn) on securing this debate. As ever, his speech was extremely interesting and erudite. The attendance in the Chamber at this time of night shows how much interest there is in his views. I should also like to place on the record my personal thanks to him for the kindnesses that he has shown me in my years in the Labour party, particularly during the 1980s. He has always been willing to discuss, argue and be supportive.
Having said that, I have listened carefully to his arguments, and I believe that he built them completely on fresh air. It was not becoming of him to repeat rumours.
If there is evidence of a Government threat to the House's right to choose the Speaker, my right hon. Friend should bring it to us. That would be an outrage. If there is no evidence, my right hon. Friend does not help our debate by repeating rumours.
On the day before the majority of hereditary peers lose their right to vote, at a time when the Government have decentralised power to a Parliament in Scotland and an Assembly in Wales, and at a time when the Government intend to decentralise power to a new authority in London, it seems strange to accuse that Government of centralising power. All the evidence goes against that argument. The Government have given power away and increased the level of democracy.
My right hon. Friend's next accusation was that the Government have adopted a presidential style. However, his supporting argument was that the Government have advisers. I am glad that there are twice as many advisers in Parliament as there used to be.
Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex):
They are not in Parliament.
Mr. Stringer:
I beg the House's pardon, and apologise to the hon. Gentleman. I meant to say in No. 10 Downing street.
When my right hon. Friend was a Minister, he had advisers. It is good to take as much advice as possible from as many people as one can. It is no denial of democracy to have people from different positions giving information. It is no evidence of presidential style to count, as though in a classroom, attendances at Cabinet meetings.
The Government gain their authority from the House. If they could not secure a majority in the House, the Government would not continue. That is the essential point about parliamentary democracy in the Commons. The record shows that the number of questions that the Prime Minister has answered in the House and the number of statements that he has made since the general election compare favourably with the figures from the same period before that election.
I should move on to my right hon. Friend's solution to the so-called problem of centralisation, although I simply do not believe that the problem exists. The solution is to have more free votes. Every Member of Parliament is free to pass through whatever Lobby he or she likes when a vote is held. That is not the basis on which the parties--[Interruption.] I hope that, if that comment is quoted, it is quoted in context. Hon. Members have the right to pass through whatever Lobby they wish. Of course, hon. Members have party loyalties and they may choose to support or oppose the Government. If all hon. Members decided to vote this way and that in this place, it would be not a parliamentary democracy but chaos.
I do not believe that any sensible person, including my right hon. Friend, thinks that a Government could work in a completely unwhipped system. In such circumstances, party manifestos would have to be 2 ft thick--and I
remind my right hon. Friend that the Labour party did least well at the polls with its longest manifesto in 1983. Labour has done better when we have focused on simple policies.
Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest):
No principles.
Mr. Stringer:
No; we have principled policies that we can communicate directly to the electorate.
It is absurd to suggest that there should be free votes in this place and that Whips should not be involved in debates. My right hon. Friend was heard tonight to say, "Where's our Whip?" as he voted against the Government.
Mr. Gerald Howarth (Aldershot):
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This has been a very interesting debate, promoted in a serious vein by the right hon. Member for Chesterfield (Mr. Benn), to which the Minister is making an absorbing response. However, I seek your guidance. I take exception to a Government Whip suggesting that I was being somehow improper in exchanging with the Deputy Chief Whip--
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Lord):
Order. The hon. Gentleman must take his seat when I am on my feet. This is a half-hour debate and time is extremely precious. It is not a general debate.
Mr. Howarth:
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
I have dealt with the hon. Gentleman's point of order.
Mr. Howarth:
I was threatened.
Mr. Deputy Speaker:
Order. I have dealt with the hon. Gentleman's point of order and I do not intend to take any more.
Mr. Stringer:
My simple point is that when my right hon. Friend said, "Where's our Whip?", did the voters of Chesterfield and the local branch of the Labour party know that he was associating with a Whip from no known political party?
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