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Sir Patrick Cormack: I disagree with the hon. Gentleman, but let me concede for a moment that he may be right. If he is, it is all the more important that the new House should have such respect, untarnished by suspicion.
It is crucial that we accept the amendment. It would not damage the Government's legislative plans or solutions. It would not alter the Bill or the composition of the other place from 17 November. It would merely ensure that future appointments were made by a statutory body that could not be manipulated, tinkered with, messed around, suspended or adjusted for political reasons by anybody who felt that the situation might be a little uncomfortable at the moment.
Mr. Leigh:
Is it not rather irrelevant whether the measure is in statute? Is not the appointments commission a fig leaf for what we know, from Lady Richard's diaries, to be the attitude of the Prime Minister and the Home Secretary, which is that they do not want an elected second Chamber? What we really want is an elected second Chamber.
Sir Patrick Cormack:
My hon. Friend speaks for himself, and it is a view which is shared by many. We do not yet know what the Wakeham commission will recommend. The official position of the Conservative party is to wait to see what the Wakeham commission has to say, after which we shall debate it and come to a considered conclusion. It may or may not be that advocated by my hon. Friend.
For the foreseeable future, however, we know what we have, and this is more than a fig leaf. The appointments commission should be a statutory body in which people can have confidence so that they at least feel that the second Chamber cannot be packed in a manipulative way by unscrupulous politicians. I urge the House to support the amendment.
Mr. Fisher:
I failed to follow the argument of the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir P. Cormack).He makes a passionate plea for the commission's independence, but, according to the amendment, it would have such limited powers as to be meaningless. It could nominate only Cross-Benchers. What about nominations from other parties? If the whole point of the commission is to ensure confidence and independence, it should scrutinise and nominate all the appointments from all the political parties.
If the hon. Gentleman were to persuade us to carry the amendment, cronyism would simply spread from all the political parties. It is not clear what the amendment means by political parties. Does that include the Referendum party or the Green party, or some new party that can nominate itself? The amendment is ill thought out and ill drafted and will not achieve the ends that the hon. Gentleman, I think with all sincerity, believes that it will. It will not provide independence and confidence in the new process.
Mr. Hogg:
The hon. Gentleman does no more than say that the amendment does not go far enough, and I agree. If it went as far as the hon. Gentleman suggests, doubtless he would support it.
Mr. Fisher:
Absolutely. As hon. Members know, I am strongly in favour of a totally elected Chamber. But if for the foreseeable future we are to have a Chamber for which all new appointments are nominated, not elected, it is essential, to avoid accusations of cronyism by any party or by anybody, that those nominations should be made and scrutinised by an arm's-length, independent body that is not in the grip of any political party or of the political process. Surely nothing else will do. We have to have an independent commission with complete powers over all nominations.
The political parties, like everyone else, can make recommendations and nominations to the commission, but the commission should have the power of appointment. The Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition or the leader of the Liberal party should not have those powers; otherwise, we should have a rigged and manipulated second Chamber.
On one level, I should be glad to see an appointed second Chamber discredited in that way, but the pain and suffering for the democratic process in the interim are not worth the winning of the point that an appointed second Chamber is completely unsatisfactory. If we are to have an appointed second Chamber, let it be the best that we can have. We must have an independent commission.
I fear that my hon. Friend the Minister is rejecting the proposal for other reasons. He does not want a totally independent and arm's-length commission. However, it is unclear what he is asking us to reject the amendment in
favour of. The Government have not published guidelines, and we do not know what sort of commission they are intending. Could the Minister say when the Government intend to publish the proposals for the commission? What powers will it have? On what grounds will it be able to reject appointments? What will happen to the non-Cross-Bench element? The Government's position seems as unclear as the amendment is unsatisfactory.
The only way to resolve the problem is to reject the amendment but for the Government to give an undertaking that they will publish guidelines as soon as possible and will make no nominations or appointments to the second Chamber until those guidelines have been published, debated and approved by this Chamber. Otherwise, the second Chamber will be open to the accusation of cronyism.
That may cause problems with the new year's honours, as I am sure the Government want to get on with appointing new Members to the second Chamber. However, it would be wholly unsatisfactory to have another round of nominated people--by the Opposition and the Government--in the second Chamber. We need the commission to be up and approved by this Chamber before there are any more nominations to the second Chamber.
Mr. Maclennan:
I very much agree with the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, Central (Mr. Fisher). The Government's case for not accepting the amendment would have been much strengthened had they been more firm and active in explaining their intentions. The principle has been enunciated before, but the detail has not.
I found uncompelling the argument that we had to wait on the conclusion of the House before setting out the machinery to give effect to the Government's principles. That has not been operated by Governments before. Preparatory steps of an Executive kind are often taken by Governments to enable them to take action as soon as the House has reached a view. It does not pre-empt the decision, but enables one to be made in a timely way. On this occasion, we have not had that action from the Government.
I hope that, as a result of the debate, we shall at least prise from the Government an indication of how and when they intend to deal with the appointment of Cross-Bench peers. As soon as the legislation is enacted, this problem will be a live one.
I disagree entirely with the view that it is either appropriate or necessary for the arrangements to be based upon statute. If it does not need to be the result of statute to operate effectively, I see no reason why that is required. The precedent is far from clear. We have an arm's-length scrutiny committee which is not a statutory body, and we have other means of making appointments. We need not clutter the statute book, or go into detailed consideration of precisely how this measure is to operate, and then set those deliberations in stone prior to the recommendations of the Wakeham commission.
Mr. Hogg:
The right hon. Gentleman says that he is not persuaded that the commission should be put on a statutory basis. Surely the answer is that appointments and the use of patronage are matters of great sensitivity which Governments can misuse. It is extremely important to
Mr. Maclennan:
I am not clear how making the process statutory would necessarily make such misuse more difficult. It is important not to get this out of proportion. We are talking about the Cross Benchers, who form only 20 to 25 per cent. of peers. The amendment does not cover the bulk of appointed peers who will be nominated following the enactment of this legislation.
There is some implication that a statutory arrangement confers special legitimacy on those who are appointed under it--a legitimacy that they might not have had under another system. I do not regard that as a desirable outcome. The appointed Cross Benchers would be no more legitimate than those appointed by other means, and a great deal less legitimate than elected members of the upper House would be.
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