Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 219)
MONDAY 17 MAY 1999
MR GARETH
BOTT, MR
PAUL LAUTMAN,
MR BARRY
SHEARING, MR
DAVID GARY,
MR MICHAEL
DURKAN AND
MR NORMAN
MACKENZIE
Judy Mallaber
200. Does the Single Gateway cut across anything
that you are currently doing or does it assist you in the Single
Gateway that you are attempting to already develop for your own
areas?
(Mr Durkan) We currently have an agreement with the
Employment Service to operate the 16- and 17-year old service
where they get special hardship payments through the Council's
offices, which is a one-stop service in the city centre. So there
is to that degree already a working relationship between different
agencies. The Benefits Agency is looking at how they can link
the payments for 16/17 year olds in with that service. Prior to
the Single Work-Focused Gateway coming into effect we were looking
at how we could operate across boundaries. One of the things that
it has brought to a head is that it has made people spend more
energy trying to see how we can get it to integrate in total.
The clients of ES in particular and BA are also the clients of
the local authority, so to that degree we can see that we can
integrate the services. One of the key aspects is that the name
and address details we all hold in local authorities something
like 40 times across departments probably. So we can see the bringing
of services together and trying to link those into some of the
aspects of local authorities, such as further education, links
with the TEC, how we look at the geographical information whereby
with a lot of money going into benefits we recognise in the local
authority that does not have a cumulative effect on the people
in communities who tend to live in the areas suffering deprivation,
so we always know that the benefit is going into certain areas.
We are trying to work together not only looking at the front end,
how do we deliver services to people coming into the Gateway,
but from the back end, how do we change the opportunities for
people in those deprived areas.
201. That sounds a much more positive picture
than we have been getting elsewhere. Just commenting on Gareth's
comment about the private/voluntary sector areas not being able
to have a say as a local authority, my understanding is that the
local authorities are going to be involved in evaluating the bids
that are put in. I think we got to a point where you have said
it was very slow getting off the mark in local authorities and
I think what we are interested in now is are we there, are we
taking it forward, what are the positive lessons from here on?
(Mr Bott) We feel that we are very, very involved
now. In fact, I think we would look at the local implementation
meetings and think that the local authorities were very much in
the driving seat in terms of those particular meetings and the
negotiations with the local bidders. I think the frustration that
we are feeling is that the design of this acquisition is not about
generating a specification of service delivery and then looking
for somebody to deliver it, it is about designing that service
model, that is what the competition is about. Our local group
is receiving proposals from the bidders and merely commenting
on those in terms of their workability, not in terms of whether
we think they are good, very good, quite good. That is a frustration
because we want to see the best possible delivery model in our
area for our clients. We are quite worried that because of the
nature of this acquisition we will not be able to influence that
to the degree that we would like to and our clients, therefore,
may have to suffer an inferior product for the sake of testing
of the different pilot variants.
202. Is that same picture true in the non-private
sector variants in terms of being involved in the design or not?
(Mr Gary) Can we just say that on the design, certainly
from a local authority's point of view that is not in the private
sector, we are very frustrated with the backward steps that we
are having to take with IT. We have gone back now with the Gateway
project to having to handle paper, a courier bringing it down
the road to us for the want of—I had better not say a few
bob—some expenditure on the Gateway project side. We could
have a fully integrated system up and running with the IT that
the local authorities currently have. It is a great shame that
we have got to go backwards. We are going to go backwards by having
to punch twice, three times, four times, rather than punch once,
get the information in and electronically transmit it to all parties
involved. It is a great shame, it really is a great shame, that
we cannot go to that to get the project running as efficiently
as it could be.
Mr Keetch
203. That is because of lack of investment in
IT?
(Mr Gary) Yes.
204. Not because of incompatible systems?
(Mr Gary) No. Our IT manager assures me—he also
assures me on lots of other things—that we could have that
running. He assures me that we can do it. If we have got the money
he says he can do it—honestly.
205. Again, just to bring other colleagues in,
is that a feeling among all of you?
(Mr Mackenzie) Yes, exactly the same.
(Mr Lautman) I think the timetable has also made developing
IT links very difficult.
(Mr Durkan) We have done some work on this. I am sorry
to go against your IT man but we have looked at integrating the
systems and apparently the cost of integrating the systems and
the complexities are such that it would not be worth the money
to try and do it. In other ways the same can be achieved by developing
new databases starting from scratch within the pilots. The problem
is going back in the past and linking all the existing ones together
because they were not designed to link.
206. So it is cheaper to chuck away the computers
and start again?
(Mr Durkan) Yes, start developing new databases and
link them through the design.
Judy Mallaber
207. Is that feasible? Certainly my Employment
Service people were saying "we know we are going to have
to start off by carrying bits of paper down the road but hopefully
once it gets moving we can then develop the systems". Is
that something that you would expect to be able to do?
(Mr Durkan) From the one-stops that are being developed
at the moment I know it is an issue about what degree of help
can people give and what degree of knowledge can they hold, the
idea being how can technology help. I think the technology that
is available now in terms of personal databases or property databases
can be developed in using combined training linked to the intranet
etc. So, for instance, you could have processes that are on the
computer and can be accessed by those members of staff, so it
is not that they have to hold all the data in their head but that
information is accessible at some point. I think we will find
the same across the country with welfare rights, that welfare
rights officers have been given a wide range of information because
they have been specially trained and have access to the information
that they need. It is at what point is the information available
that the person needs to be able to give the service.
Mr Keetch
208. This does not take account of the problem
of NIRS2 or NRS2 in the Employment Service, I believe?
(Mr Lautman) Sorry, you have lost us.
Chairman: Hold that question and we will come
back to it in a second.
Mr Healey
209. Can I try and use a specific measure to
get some clear idea of the involvement of local authorities in
the pilots. I am addressing this to Barry and Paul and Norman
and your knowledge of the basic model areas in your patches. The
successful candidates recruited for the Registration and Orientation
Officers and Personal Advisers should be appointed in early May.
How many local authority staff have been appointed in your pilot
area?
(Mr Shearing) Three and a half. That is three full-time
and half part-time. Having said that, I think in South Essex there
were only three and a half appointed and four and a half applied.
210. Out of a total recruitment of how many?
(Mr Shearing) There are five authorities involved,
so at a guess the potential candidates in benefits alone would
probably be one hundred plus and authority wide several thousands
perhaps. If it is open to everybody.
(Mr Lautman) We attended a meeting with DSS officials
today and this was one of the issues that cropped up. They gave
us some initial feedback on the local authority staff that have
been recruited. It has still to be fed to us formally. Certainly
they conveyed to us a very small percentage of local authority
staff had been recruited to the basic model variants. That is
a small percentage overall. It is also a small percentage in relation
to those applied especially when you compare it with the numbers
who applied from BA and the Employment Service. We have been getting
mixed messages in this area because on the one hand there is talk
of us being in equal partnership, and we would expect to see that
reflected in recruitment and so on, but in practice it does appear
that the Employment Service staff have the lion's share. We understand
that the Employment Service staff's jobs are changing most as
a result of these pilots. It is perfectly understandable why you
may want those staff to have the lion's share of new jobs arising,
but I think it is a question of explaining clearly what the criteria
are here for recruitment of staff because if you talk about equal
partnership and that is not reflected in terms of the actual recruitment
of staff then that can have a very negative effect on individual
local authorities on the ground who are trying to sell the partnership
locally. So I think it is important the initiative is clear on
this and other aspects in terms of what are the objectives, what
are the criteria on what our partners can reasonably expect.
(Mr Mackenzie) It has been the same in the Clyde Coast
and Renfrew pilot. Out of over 60 posts, the majority went to
people who came out of the Employment Service. A minority from
the Benefits Agency and only two from the five local authorities
were appointed to posts. A larger number applied.
211. You heard the earlier evidence and the
importance of co-location was mentioned. To what degree have you
got plans within the basic service model, because it is obviously
more advanced than the others, for locating local authority staff
in the Single Gateway sites? They may remain local authority staff
but they would not be employed by the Single Gateway unit.
(Mr Shearing) Certainly two of the authorities will
be Gateway sites, so we will have staff in fairly close proximity.
In Chelmsford we acknowledge the fact that we will have to provide
somebody in the Gateway site, which is in another location, certainly
during the initial six month period whilst the Gateway staff themselves
are coming up to speed. It is an acknowledgment on our part that
we will have to provide someone to assist and hopefully to be
able to undertake benefits work whilst they are there.
(Mr Mackenzie) There are 12 sites within the Clyde
Coast and Renfrew pilot. Only two people have been appointed from
local authorities. There is going to be very little movement.
All of the sites are either Employment Service or Benefits Agency
within the Clyde Coast and Renfrew pilot. In addition to that,
we would fully expect to be sending people along, particularly
at the beginning of the pilot because there is going to be the
need to share information and to make systems work if they are
not absolutely 100 per cent right from day one.
212. What do local authorities bring to the
table in this? You have talked about wanting to be lead partners
alongside the others. What is distinct in terms of the expertise
that local authorities bring either to the planning of these Gateways
or, indeed, to the delivery from the point of view of claimants?
Why should you be involved?
(Mr Lautman) Clearly, as administrators of Housing
Benefit and Council Tax benefit we have got a very clear role
to play in the Gateway. Local authorities have very considerable
experience in delivering services from a partnership basis with
other organisations and on a cross-service basis. I am not saying
that is the case in all local authorities, but certainly a good
number of local authorities do that. Local authorities also have
considerable experience in dealing with the more vulnerable groups
in terms of providing employment advice for people with a learning
disability, mental health problems and providing support for people
with language difficulties predominantly through welfare advice
and the Social Services departments. So there is a lot authorities
have to offer.
(Mr Bott) One wider issue is the community leadership
aspect of local authorities, particularly in trying to deal with
social aspiration in our area where we have lost a lot of major
employers who do an awful lot of work through partnerships and
individually with people on Incapacity Benefit, things like that,
trying to break down barriers to employment. I think there are
very wide areas that we have an involvement in where we think
we are going to influence the design and influence the service
delivery.
Mr Keetch
213. The record of local authorities various
enormously and presumably would vary even within these areas you
are now establishing, so your record within your partnerships
is going to vary tremendously. Will that be a problem?
(Mr Lautman) I think it is a matter of fact that local
authorities' performance does vary in terms of Housing Benefit
administration. I think there is an improving situation, but the
situation also varies with BA local services.
214. But they will be within one BA area. Several
local authorities' performance could vary considerably.
(Mr Mackenzie) Within the Clyde Coast and Renfrew
pilot all five local authorities have anti-poverty strategies
or social inclusion strategies and are leading local efforts to
tackle failure to take up benefit, social exclusion, homelessness
and so on within the East Renfrewshire pilot contribution area.
We also have a local community partnership which brings together
employers in the private sector, the Local Enterprise company,
the health authority, the local councils, education as well as
the community. We have a social inclusion partnership within our
area. Renfrewshire Council has a similar arrangement and each
of the other Councils are the leaders in their areas in promoting
coordinated approaches to tackling poverty, social exclusion and
in lots of ways that is one of the things that councils have to
offer as well as being payers of benefits.
(Mr Shearing) At Chelmsford we have recently set up
an anti-poverty strategy as well and we have recently created
a housing advisory centre which I would see as complementing the
Gateway and we have asked that when resources and space within
the Civic Centre becomes available we can become a Gateway centre
ourselves. So we see all of those gelling together.
Mr Healey
215. Can I just give you another opportunity
to explain what is distinctive and special about the contribution
of local authorities. Were local authorities able to lead the
tenders for the Single Gateway, what would have been distinctive
about the sort of proposals that local authorities might have
come up with?
(Mr Durkan) In terms of the responsibility of the
local authorities, the scope and range of responsibility goes
beyond that of the Employment Service and the Benefits Agency
who have a duty to pay benefit to get people into work, but at
that point their duty ends. It has been shown in all the research
that has taken place that the people suffering most in terms of
deprivation and their ability to get jobs are people from a certain
area. Where local government has come in is they can put in the
links between everything and it is a much bigger picture, as you
are all well aware, than simply getting a benefit payment, it
is how to get out of that cycle of benefit dependency. The local
authority has got a key role to play in that because of its responsibility
for housing and education and social services. The local authority
would approach it in that way, whereas once people are off the
books of the Employment Service and the Benefits Agency they are
off their books.
(Mr Mackenzie) If we were putting in a tender we would
lead with advice as the way into the thing and benefits are part
of that, but it is very clear to us that the vision that Ministers
have been communicating is that the Single Work-Focused Gateway
should certainly be focused on work and whether or not there are
barriers to participation in the labour market and whether or
not these ought to be addressed but that primarily it is about
addressing the needs of the individual person. The Single Work-Focused
Gateway is aimed at everybody on a low income of working age,
not simply people who are or have been in the labour market. It
is aimed at carers and they need advice, they need information,
they need help to claim the benefits that are due. They ought
to be given information about employment opportunities, but many
carers would take the view that unless it is handled sensitively
by people who are prepared to listen as well as talk it has the
danger of being something that is not going to be of help to them
in the choices they have to make for the foreseeable part of their
lives.
Ms Atherton
216. You heard the discussion earlier about
the bigger vision of an integration maybe between local and central
government services, a genuine one-stop shop. If anyone has got
examples and experience of one-stop shops it has to be local government.
They are very successful. I was involved as a councillor many
years ago in decentralising and I saw 100 per cent uptake in services
requested and then a complete drop as we dealt with them and then
people became comfortable and knew where they were going in the
interim, but there was always this gap of central government not
being part of this network. Do you have the same reaction as our
previous witnesses of scepticism or would you see it as an opportunity
that could be pursued?
(Mr Lautman) I think that is a vision that local government
shares, to be able to facilitate the provision of integrated services
locally. Look at the number of areas, for example, of Single Regeneration
Budget bids, that local authorities are looking at delivering
local services more effectively at a neighbourhood level, not
just local authority services but services from other agencies
as well. It is perfectly conceptually possible that in the long-term
you can think in terms of delivering benefits, advice and following
on support at that level as well.
217. Would you agree with me that the more experience
you have got at a hands-on level on the ground the more open and
receptive you are to this whereas when you have not been involved
you are more sceptical and you can see the problems? I can see
some heads nodding.
(Mr Durkan) Something you mentioned before was the
issue about dealing with customer contact as being for the most
experienced people, that is something that everyone has learned
from and changed their approach on.
Judy Mallaber
218. In the light of all this do you think that
local authorities in private/voluntary sector pilots should have
been allowed to bid to run them or is that outwith your remit
and your members might go a bit mad if you make a commitment?
(Mr Durkan) We would have liked to have had the opportunity.
219. We have not yet asked about call centres.
We ought to ask one question. Do you have a view about the pros
and cons of call centres as a means of getting information gathered
from people in your area?
(Mr Gary) No, I do not have an issue with the call
centre technology. Particularly in a rural area like Somerset
it is a super idea because it means that people have not got to
travel into the centres, into Taunton and into other towns in
Somerset, so it is a green policy. It makes life easier. We can
put call help desks in village stores, that is one of the initiatives
that councils are trying to work up in Somerset. The only problem
we have is the mismatch with the verification framework which
is an anti-fraud framework because at that point, at the call
centre point, you are taking an awful lot on just a telephone
call. That is somewhat offset by the fact that they will still
have to come in for a Personal Adviser interview afterwards. I
think the call centre idea, or the notion of a call centre, is
very good.
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