Examination of witnesses (Questions 600
- 621)
MONDAY 29 MARCH 1999
SIR DENNIS
PETTITT, CLLR
DEREK GREEN,
MR ALAN
ALLSOPP, MR
DAVID PICKLES,
OBE, MR
DICK HUSKINSON
and MS SARA
BATLEY
Mr Grieve
600. You have partly answered the first
matter I wanted to raise with you. You moved on to regulations,
and presumably, just picking up what Mrs Brinton has said, if
there were proper building regulations or a change in building
regulations, both for new build and also for retrofit and renovation
of existing buildings, that would go a long way towards actually
achieving real reductions?
(Mr Allsopp) Yes.
601. May I move on to planning. Many local
authorities are planning authorities, and the part of the Planning
Policy Guidance which they have to implement includes sustainable
development, but there is not anything at the moment about energy
efficiency. Do you consider that there ought to be, and, if that
is the case, how should energy efficiency be incorporated into
the overall planning process?
(Cllr Green) I think we definitely do need Planning
Policy Guidance notes which would spell out the energy efficiency
in clear and unequivocal terms. Also, there needs to be tied in
the regional planning guidance development as well. As we have
mentioned previously, we need to be discussing with RDAs how energy
can be incorporated within their future role. I think that is
something we definitely need to do.
(Mr Allsopp) I would say also there is an opportunity
for supplementary planning guidance as well. We have tried to
do this on a voluntary basis and to incorporate some of the best
practice that is going on. An example of that is probably the
recent best practice publication, General Information Report 53,
which is going to be part of the presentation this afternoon,
about developing sustainable communities. This concept was the
subject of a funding bid supported by the Partnership, again which
was unsuccessful, however. That was to develop supplementary planning
guidance for renewable regeneration, a renewables concept in development,
and that bid would obviously have facilitated training for key
decision-makers, elected members and other key decision-makers,
on planning guidance. That bid was, unfortunately, unsuccessful
but we have not given up the ghost. We actually plan to do that
as a pilot workshop within the Local Authorities' Energy Partnership
and we are currently planning for that this year.
(Mr Pickles) Could I say that the planning profession
is very hungry for this information. The planning profession has
never previously asked me to talk to present these issues to them.
I have had six requests in the last 12 months. This is something
which they are aware of and really would like to move forward
on as a profession.
Joan Walley
602. The whole agenda is a very broad, wide
agenda, and I wonder, in view of all the other policy initiatives
that there are in respect of the Health Action Zones, the New
Deal, the role of businesses in all of this, and the fact that
they have now got the regional development agencies, what you
actually consider to be the barriers to local authorities operating
in a really innovative way alongside these different bodies and
within the different partnerships which you want to see established?
(Mr Huskinson) I think almost by definition if
it is innovative it is outside our current powers. This is the
problem. The barriers we face are legal barriers and obviously
funding barriers and the ability to deliver, if we could overcome
those barriers, which, certainly within this Partnership, are
tremendous. The enthusiasm that comes out whenever any sort of
initiative is proposed is a joy to behold. Unfortunately, when
people run up against a brick wall the disappointment is equally
great. There are partnership workings between this Partnership
and other partners which are currently established and you will
hear of a couple of those this afternoon, but they tend to be
within a very narrow remit where you can shoehorn it into your
existing powers and your existing responsibilities.
603. But why are you not putting more energy
into driving through those brick walls? Why are you not putting
more energy into trying to be in a position where you can be innovative
or more innovative? What is stopping you? Why are you not doing
more, to play devil's advocate?
(Mr Huskinson) One of the reasons we hope you
are here today is to take back from us the need to get this clause
(which I am going to give you later) into the Local Government
Bill so that we do have those powers.
604. You are putting words into my mouth.
(Mr Pickles) May I say, in terms of innovative
projects at the end of the day it is down to risk assessment.
I give my superiors at Newark and Sherwood regular headaches on
these issues. When it came to the Energy Agency itself, which
is a European co-financed initiative, the comment of my solicitor
was that she was very doubtful whether we had powers to proceed
and on that basis I was never to be the lead partner in any other
funding proposals. So my tactics and the way I operate within
the Energy Agency with my colleagues is, if we have an innovative
idea we give it to someone else to lead on it and then we become
the number two. Another illustration as to the creativity we have
to get up to is that over the last ten years I have regularly
done consultancy work for the Building Research Establishment.
Two years ago they were converted to an agency and we cannot have
a contract now with the Building Research Establishment. It has
taken me 18 months but I have actually got a mechanism working
round that whereby I am on the staff of De Montfort University
and De Montfort University have the contract with the Building
Research Establishment. So yes, you can imagine the enormous staff
time and endeavours it takes to be this creative and one looks
over the water to mainland Europe and I find myself running very
hard to equate their sauntering along because we do not have a
national energy strategy where we are all facing the same way,
each sector knows what the nation's goals are. So it is very wearing
and time-consuming and inherently inefficient and it is only those
with dogged determination who actually move forward because it
would be very easy just to say, "It's not worth it."
(Cllr Green) If I may make a point on that, Chairman,
I remember at an early meeting there being more legal representatives
than there were technical advisers at that meeting because of
the ESCO situation, and that is a lot to pay people.
Mr Savidge
605. To return to the point I was making
earlier, is what I was suggesting before about a power of general
competence the best solution to that block on innovation or are
there other solutions you see, too?
(Mr Huskinson) I would think that in terms of
from outside, the power of general competence is probably the
best way forward, but I am conscious that you would have a heck
of a job getting it through Parliament.
Mrs Brinton
606. I must say I have found it profoundly
depressing to see that all your creative energy and imagination
has to go into outwitting government legislation to achieve government
objectives. Having said that, that is certainly the message I
am going to take back. May we look a bit more at national policy
in the area of climate change. Are you expecting to see a significant
local government component, local government focus, actually written
down, not just if you happen to come up with it, within any national
climate change strategy, and have you spoken at all about this
and the need for this with the Minister of the Environment, Michael
Meacher?
(Mr Allsopp) I think there is a need for that
and that is demonstrated by the local government document basically,
which for local authorities is an excellent piece of work. That
needs to be adopted on a national basis as part of the national
energy strategy but more should be delivered on a regional basis
and that cascades then down to a local basis. But obviously we
need that type of infrastructure from nationally agreed targets,
nationally agreed databases, national policy cascading down to
a regional basis which could involve the RDAs, etc. and then on
to a local basis by county council, by districts and even lower
than that, by parish.
607. Certainly one of the messages you would
like us to take back is, "Can we please have a clear, well-worded,
well-tiered national energy strategy?" so I have got that
message. But may I take you on to a further national strategy
and that is the one for sustainable energy policy. Can you see
one about to emerge, have you had any indications, do you think
one will nestle gracefully within a strategy for climate change
or should it be separated?
(Cllr Green) Very necessary. The need, as you
are well aware, springs from the situation that if it is business
as usual, if we carry on the way we are, we will not reduce CO2
emissions to the 20 per cent. that is proposed, so we have to
move forward in working with business to try and bring them on
board and on a national policy. We need that to come and give
us some support.
608. Finally on this round of questions,
do you have good clear relationships with business and shared
objectives in this area of policy?
(Mr Allsopp) On a voluntary basis. There is a
scheme that you will hear about in this afternoon's presentation
about the new partnership for Nottingham City, Nottinghamshire's
new partnership, and I think that is an excellent example of something
that could be replicated. It is a new initiative basically and
we will wait to se how that develops.
609. Could you send us information about
it?
(Mr Allsopp) Yes.
Chairman
610. Is there anything you would particularly
like to say about a national climate change strategy from the
local government point of view or is it all in the local government
document?
(Mr Allsopp) I would say it is in the local government
document. It is an excellent, what I would say, bible of strategy
for the future, particularly for local authorities.
611. You have mentioned eloquently the problems
of not having the right legislation, not having the right powers.
Looking at it again from your point of view, do you find the Government
approach satisfactorily integrated between the departments you
have to deal with, for example, or maybe you just deal with the
Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions and do
not have much to do with the other government departments and,
therefore, it does not impact on you, but do you notice differences
between different government agencies and government departments?
(Mr Huskinson) I deal with two or three government
departments and I do notice a difference in enthusiasm from department
to department but that may just be a difference in enthusiasm
between personnel and personnel. I think if I stand back, the
official policy of the department is probably the same but the
enthusiasm appears to be more from certain departments.
612. We have noticed, for example, a difference
between, say, the Housing Division of the Department of the Environment,
Transport and the Regions as opposed to the Environment Division,
perhaps naturally as regards the environment. Is that the sort
of thing that strikes you as well?
(Mr Huskinson) Yes, and there is also an environmental
element within the Department of Trade and Industry, which has
a different focus from the Department of the Environment, and
often you will find yourselves discussing fairly similar schemes
with two departments.
Mr Loughton
613. Could we turn to Europe. I know the
LAEP have recognised the value of working with various European
partners. Mr Pickles mentioned earlier his counterpart in Sweden.
Can you touch on some of the joint work you have done with European
partners that has proved particularly helpful?
(Cllr Green) Some of our joint work as a County
Council has been very successful with our twin in Posnan in Poland.
We have helped them to develop their own energy strategy and the
two Leaders of the councils have signed an addendum to the twinning
agreement regarding the conservation of energy. The second example
is our very successful, as you heard previously, Newark and Sherwood
Energy Agency.
(Mr Pickles) Within the Agency we have been successful
with a schools project with Irish and Greek partners. We are increasingly
beginning to realise, certainly at a local level, if we are going
to move forward on this issue, it is an 80 per cent. cultural,
20 per cent. technical issue. So we are particularly keen on work
within our schools. But it is a two-way process. I have mentioned
the dream scenario in Sweden where they have access to postcodes,
but we have a lot of expertise in the United Kingdom which we
do export, especially on holistic benefits of energy efficiency
in housing. We have a project with a French partner. They did
not realise they had an affordable warmth problem until recent
years.
614. Could I bring you back. You talked
about the schools project with Irish and Greek partners. What
does that amount to?
(Mr Allsopp) It is basically through the network
of the energy agencies and obviously looking at potential funding
bids again, and funding bids through the Commission. Energy agencies
obviously have an opportunity to "fast track" that funding
regime to get a bit of preferential treatment, I would say. Through
networking and meeting we discovered that certain agencies probably
had a lot of expertise, particularly on education, linking up
to the National Curriculum. Over the years we have developed a
number of schemes in Nottinghamshire for education and linking
that to opportunities. So in discussions we were successful in
putting a funding bid together and basically the Commission wanted
to see real initiatives being developed. So our project was an
initiative called the Demand Side Management project, and that
is linked with County Cork in Ireland and Macedonia in Greece.
Basically that trains up the schoolchildren to carry out energy
surveys. It looks at the holistic benefit to the school and the
community and developing a policy which the governors will adopt,
an energy strategy which the school will adopt, and an investment
appraisal, and the schoolchildren are well advanced on that. You
have probably recently been invited to their presentation, Derek?
(Cllr Green) Yes, on 27 April, and I have been
asked also to invite yourselves to attend that, if that would
be possible.
615. That sounds like it is information
exchange in the delivery of education amongst pupils. What about
the infrastructure in terms of shared projects and experiences
with Macedonia or County Cork or whatever on how you build your
schools in terms of the energy efficient infrastructure of the
actual buildings? Is that sort of thing going on?
(Mr Allsopp) It will do as an add-on development
and as part of that presentation. Currently we will look at the
investment appraisal in the school and the headteacher is very
optimistic to roll that out into the community, because it is
a deprived area, as part of an affordable warmth strategy. We
are also looking at putting forward a follow-on project for funding
to roll that out into renewable demonstration projects and to
carry out a study on renewable balance plans for their particular
area.
616. Could I come back to Dominic Grieve's
point on the planning and design requirements. We went to see
in Denmark some interesting space-age-type dwellings that were
solar-powered and affordable and all this sort of thing, and the
rating system has an element of energy efficiency built into it
that we do not have over here. Do you see any scope, and how soon,
for you to share those sorts of experiences that you have, as
a local authority, and the sort of houses you are building or
licensing to build or contributing to building, social housing
projects or whatever? And just going `way into the future, if
you were given the powers to do this, this would have an impact
on your council tax revenues as well in terms of giving a preferential
council tax rating for more energy efficient houses. Is that something
you relish or is that something you think is going to be a big
problem in terms of leaving a hole in your purse perhaps if you
had lots of energy efficient houses within your county boundary?
(Mr Pickles) Certainly I think if the energy efficient
householder signed up to a sustainable lifestyle, you could argue
that their draw on our services would be reduced, the need to
collect the waste would reduce. I suppose there is a bit of a
logic in that. It is a local tax incentive, in effect, is it not,
to advocate? I would turn it on its head personally with new build.
New build construction is VAT-free and conversion/alteration of
buildings has VAT. In sustainable terms that is a perversity;
it should be the other way round. Given the fact that we have
VAT-free new construction, I think that automatically means they
have an obligation to deliver the very highest standards in order
to justify the retention of that VAT-free status. I think that
might be a more powerful, if possibly just as radical, I suppose,
way forward, and this afternoon I have illustrations of how, in
fact, delivering ultra-low energy housing is not a financially
onerous exercise. It is a challenging exercise in terms of the
skills of the construction industry in the United Kingdom, so
we need a lead-in time on such an agenda because we have to build
up the quality of the workforce and the skills, but there are
enough exemplar projects within this region and nationally to
show that it is an option that certainly ought to be seriously
evaluated.
Mrs Brinton
617. Could I take us now on to combined
heat and power. The Government seems to be very in favour, or
certainly if you look at the text and the very warm words, it
seems to be more in favour of it than anything else. I think there
are certain people on this Committee who feel great concern about
the moratorium, etc., but I am not going to go into that too much.
We had CHPA[3]
actually come and give evidence to us and although they were encouraged
by the tone of the Government, they actually felt that more could
be put in place to encourage CHP. They also felt that the non-fossil
fuel obligation in terms of its structure was actually impeding
development. Would you agree with that at a local level?
(Mr Huskinson) That is a subject I know. With
CHP and the Government's press for CHP, it links up with community
heating and on every occasion I would go along with that. I was
very pleased to read through the climate change document, though
it does not exactly appear on every page but just a fair few,
where the words "community heating with CHP" appear
and I think the reality is that the CO2 emissions savings
with community heating and CHP are so dramatic. Even in a fairly
nominal sort of scheme if you do not get 60 per cent. you are
not doing very well. So I can see why the Government is very keen
on that and I am very keen on it because of the affordable warmth
side as well. The problem with seeing it go forward is, if you
think in terms of the various types of heating available, if you
have electric heating or gas in-house boiler heating, there is
a distribution system and that distribution system is already
in place and has been paid for out of the public purse. The privatised
utilities are responsible for maintaining and upkeeping and extending
it but the basic network has already been paid for. When you get
down to community heating the distribution network is part of
the cost of the heating scheme, so in effect (I do not like this
term) you do not have a level playing-field, you are not comparing
like with like. If the Government wishes to see community heating
take off at the sort of rate that it appears to be suggesting
in the climate change document, then it has to find a way of bridging
that funding gap. There is a gap between in-house heating and
community heating, which is anything between £2-3,000 per
dwelling, at the initial capital investment stage. If you look
at the whole-life cost of community heating with CHP you find
that purely in terms of costs the two compared with individual
boilers balance out because if you fit an individual boiler then
at year 14 you have to fit a new one and that is retrofit and
at year 28 you have another new one to go in. All of that covers
the lifetime of a community heating/CHP scheme. I actually present
a graph which shows the costs of the individual one going up and
the costs of the Community Heating starting high and actually
coming down and they cross and you get to the stage where eventually
you get total payback on the community heating with CHP scheme.
The reason for that is when you have community heating with CHP
you have a revenue stream from the electricity which you do not
have in any other form of heating. So if the Government wishes
to encourage CHP/community heating at a local level it has to
find a way of bridging that initial capital gap. That may be by
allowing factoring forward of savings. I know that is pretty revolutionary
as far as the Treasury is concerned. It may have to be simply
in terms of something like a first time connection grant, which
is how they encouraged first time rural sewerage many years ago,
for those of us who are old enough to remember. There is also,
of course, another barrier to CHP taking off in industry, which
is CHP on its own, and there are two barriers really. The first
one is that energy is cheap. Energy currently is cheap, so for
an industry to think in terms of fitting its own combined heat
and power unit, it does not bother. It does not think about it
because energy is a fairly small element within their business.
Interestingly, there is a also a mindset there because even if
you can demonstrate to an industrialist that by investing in a
CHP unit he gets payback within three and a half years, say, and
by investing in extra machinery to expand his business he gets
payback in 15 years, as far as he is concerned, energy is not
part of his core business and they will, amazingly, always go
for expanding the core business when they have the capital availability.
In times when capital is short, I am afraid investment in energy
services tends to be put on the back burner. It is not seen as
core business.
618. Certainly when we went on our European
Select Committee trip we were very impressed by district heating
and, indeed, the potential in this country, in the United Kingdom,
for district heating, but from what you have said in your very
comprehensive answer, it seems to me that it is not going to grow,
it is not going to increase here, unless there is more Government
cash given. Also in these submissions you very much praised, I
think, some of the White Paper, some of the governmental statements,
all, surprise, surprise, coming from the DETR. Would it be your
view that the Treasury has to green up a little bit and perhaps
match DETR and that is the joined-up thinking that we really need
if we are going to make progress in this area?
(Cllr Green) Very much so.
(Mr Huskinson) Yes.
Mr Grieve
619. I think the question I was going to
ask on monitoring has probably already been covered at a much
earlier stage, which was really that you are conscious of the
energy strategy to 2020 and your anxiety was that you were not
able to lay your hands on the data. It is obvious that data is
very important to achieve the Partnership's objectives but was
there anything you wanted to add as to what could be done to improve
access to data as far as you are concerned, both for sustainability
and also for the whole question of energy conservation?
(Ms Batley) I think in a way this relates to the
question about the housing stock and the standard of our housing
stock. What we are interested in as far as data is concerned is
not just the standard of our housing stock and information on
that. We are also interested in clear consumption data, because
it has been estimated that you can make 10 per cent. energy savings
just on housekeeping, not on making any material improvements
to your home. So if you had consumption data you could relate
that to the attitudinal effect that the householder has. It is
not just improving the house that is important. It is improving
their attitudes, and as was mentioned earlier, it is an 80 per
cent. attitudinal problem, 20 per cent. technical problem. So
it is not just the material of the house that we need the data
on. We need the actual consumption data so that we can change
people's attitudes.
(Mr Pickles) To enable it to happen it needs a
regulatory framework and a duty imposed upon energy suppliers
to make the data available in the public domain.
620. That is all energy suppliers—petrol,
diesel and everything?
(Mr Pickles) Everything, yes.
Chairman
621. Thank you very much indeed. I think
we can bring our morning session to a close and thank you for
your participation. It has been extremely useful. I am glad to
have it on the record; I am sure you are, too. We will meet again
at 1.30 and look forward to your presentations.
(Cllr Green) Could I finish with something that
has driven the Partnership for many years. It is a comment made
by a schoolchild in Nottinghamshire some time ago. Her name is
Laura Shed. We always quote it and many people have heard this
many times from me. She wrote, "Dear Mr President of Europe,
I am disgusted at what you are doing to the environment. You have
not heard the last of this." The chilling point is that Laura
Shed is now of voting age.
Chairman: Thank you
very much, Mr Chairman.
3 The Combined Heat and Power Association. Back
|
