Examination of witnesses
(Questions 500 - 508)
WEDNESDAY 9 DECEMBER
and MR RICHARD
500. If you could do that then all the cameras
would be live?
(Mr Manning) Yes.
(Mr Brunstrom) We are categorically not asking
for additional money for the police service. Everything else is
in place. We have superb technology, with one exception about
chasing errant drivers, we have very very good law. The whole
process works perfectly provided the offenders pay for it and
that is what is missing at the moment.
501. I want to ask you a question which
does worry me after listening to you and that is the sort of safeguards
that you would require as the police force before you extended
the powers available, particularly to stop vehicles, to people
like traffic wardens.
(Mr Manning) We are not talking about parking
attendants and I think we need to make that distinction.
502. Forgive me, you were talking about
what you called badged subsidiaries. I do not quite know how we
describe them. I am asking you something that to me is fairly
fundamental. If you blur the responsibilities between a constable
who may be quite an expensive commodity but is nevertheless in
theory both intelligent and trained and those who have different
responsibilities may be equally intelligent but differently trained,
you may get yourselves and you may get, even more importantly,
the rest of us into a slightly difficult situation. What safeguards
are you asking for before that change takes place?
(Mr Manning) What we are giving is an assurance
that those people will be under police management and therefore
the police service will be accountable for their actions.
503. Forgive me, you are also responsible
for a lot of people in this building and some of us would see
that there is a difference between a constable and some of the
people who are within your management.
(Mr Manning) The safeguard I would be looking
for is the fact that we would have to train and properly equip
the traffic wardens to discharge this additional function.
504. So they would be increasingly expensive?
(Mr Manning) No. A traffic warden can direct traffic
or stand in the middle of the road and tell you to turn left or
505. Or stop.
(Mr Manning) It can direct traffic but it cannot
tell you to stop in the sense of "I want to stop and I now
want to do something else with you, I want you to talk this will
particular person here." They receive training, they have
a level of competence already and we are actually extending the
power which they have already got to direct traffic to physically
stopping the moving traffic thus enabling their wider use to assist
in environmental issues and a whole range of other matters.
506. When you do a multi-agency stop, the
Committee saw one in east London, for instance, and you use motorcycle
police to bring in HGVs for the very good and simple reason that
they were the people that were both visible and effective and
on the whole even the most recalcitrant driver took some notice
of a large man on a motor bike, does it seem to you that there
will be the same effect with a traffic warden?
(Mr Manning) If we were going to require them
to be on a motorcycle and to be able to do other duties, which
is the case, then probably not, Chairman.
507. We are crossing this line, are we not,
between a policeman and a non-policeman?
(Mr Manning) Yes, we are.
508. What I am saying to you is what safeguards
need to be built in before we give those powers to somebody else?
(Mr Manning) You should not give them to somebody
else, that is the point I am making. You should give them to the
police service and under police management, police accountability
that is the way to have the safeguards that there will be this
accountability line and an assurance that the resources will be
Chairman: Mr Stevens,
Mr Manning, Mr Brunstrom, thank you very much. You have proved
to us you are an under-funded, ethical, highly effective, very
modest group of men and we are very grateful to you. You have
also highlighted some very important points. Thank you.