Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140
- 159)
TUESDAY 20 APRIL 1999
THE HON
PETER CARUANA,
QC, MR
ERNEST MONTADO
and MR ALBERT
POGGIO, MBE
Chairman
140. Chief Minister, it is my pleasure to
welcome you and your colleagues to the meeting of the Committee.
We know you have Mr Ernest Montado, the Chief Secretary, to your
right, and our good friend, Mr Albert Poggio, the UK Representative
to your Government, on your left. Chief Minister, we owe you our
thanks as a Committee for the excellent programme which you arranged
for us during our visit to Gibraltar last month. You ensured that
we saw a very wide range of the people of Gibraltar and we gained
very lively impressions, not least at the border. Could you perhaps
just very briefly begin by updating us on the current border situation?
(Mr Caruana) Yes, of course, Chairman. First of
all, I in turn am grateful to you and to your Committee for coming
to see for yourselves in Gibraltar and indeed for extending to
me this invitation to give evidence before you. The position at
the border is very much as you saw it. The queues at the border
fluctuate between one hour and one and a half hours. Sometimes
they reach two hours, but one to one and a half hours is the established
norm. Yesterday morning, on a one-off basis, we had only 15 minutes
of queues. That same sort of desirable one-off blip was experienced
on one morning of last week. That was much more how it used to
be in January and December of last year.
141. Do I understand that you have a schedule
of the delays which you can leave with the Committee?
(Mr Caruana) Yes. What I have done is that I have
updated the tables and charts that I gave you last time bringing
it right up to date. It remains the position that on the daily
average—remember we talked about flow rates and how this
had been "abnormal" because there has never been normality
at that border—before the current tensions began normal
flow rates were 150 vehicles per half hour and we are still hovering
between 70 and 90 per half hour. The volume of traffic is still
only half—50 per cent—of what it was before the current
tensions began. So not only is the flow rate much slower but the
volume of traffic is much lower.
142. So you will update what you have given
us in your very helpful memorandum.
(Mr Caruana) I will certainly hand it over. I
do not know what the procedure is for putting documents in evidence
at this stage.
143. Chief Minister, now I would like to
see if you can help us on something with which we certainly do
need help and that is the Anglo-Spanish Summit. As you know, the
two Prime Ministers of Spain and the United Kingdom met on 10
and 11 April. There was a written answer in Hansard on 15 April
in relation to what was discussed and Gibraltar was not mentioned
in that written answer. Are you able to give us some indication
from your sources of what was discussed in relation to Gibraltar?
(Mr Caruana) Chairman, I much regret that I cannot
because I do not know. When I have asked on several occasions
what might have transpired I have been informed by the Foreign
Office, through His Excellency the Governor, that the Foreign
Office does not know what transpired between the two Prime Ministers
in relation to Gibraltar. You can make of that answer what you
will.
144. But your understanding is that Gibraltar,
as we were told, did come up in the discussions in the afternoon?
(Mr Caruana) I have had no confirmation positively
that Gibraltar did come up. I assume that it did come up. Those
in the Foreign Office and in the Convent in Gibraltar to whom
I have spoken also assume that it did come up. It would be extraordinary
if it had not come up. Indeed, if it had not come up we would
be very upset indeed.
Mr Rowlands
145. There has been no briefing of either
the Governor or yourself about the outcome of the discussions
that took place?
(Mr Caruana) I cannot speak of what briefing might
have been given to the Governor although I can tell the Committee
that he has told me that he has been told nothing and I have no
reason to doubt what he says to me. Certainly I have been given
no briefing. I have asked for a briefing and I have been told
that the Foreign Office does not know what transpired and therefore
cannot brief me about it.
Mr Wilshire
146. Is that a normal experience of yours
with these sorts of discussions or is this an unusual occurrence?
(Mr Caruana) The whole thing is an usual occurrence
in the sense that this is the first Prime Ministerial Bilateral
Summit and therefore I have nothing to compare it with. Certainly
I would think it is unusual and, from my point of view, undesirable
that we should not get feedback on the messages that flow in both
directions at such encounters.
Chairman
147. Chief Minister, it may be of little
assurance to you that our Committee has asked for a briefing which
will of course, when received, be in the records of the Committee.
I notice from the written answer of 15 April that this meeting
was said to mark a step change in Britain's bilateral relationship
with Spain, that the two Prime Ministers discussed the way forward
in Europe, discussed a competitive, prosperous Europe, a joint
declaration on employment and economic reform and so on, and Kosovo
was of course mentioned. Is this not really a part of the problem,
that for you your relationship with Spain is top of the agenda
and 100 per cent; for the United Kingdom with our wider interests
within the European Union and within NATO with Spain you are only
a part of the agenda?
(Mr Caruana) Indeed, Chairman. I should start
off by saying that in principle the Government of Gibraltar welcomes
the existence of good relations between the United Kingdom and
Spain on the assumption and the supposition that those good relations
are predicated on the fact that Spain is comporting itself in
relation to Gibraltar in a way consistent with those good relations.
What is a matter of concern to us is that at a time when the Spaniards
are deploying at the border behaviour which British Ministers
themselves have described to be unacceptable, that at the very
same time relations between Spain and the United Kingdom should
be said to be better than ever before. Although we welcome that
relations between the United Kingdom and Spain should be good
we nevertheless fear that that might send to Spain the signal
that regardless of what she does to Gibraltar, regardless of the
nature of her behaviour towards Gibraltar, such conduct cannot
adversely affect relations with Spain and this may lead Spain
to believe that she can act with impunity in relation, for example,
to the border, but not just in relation to the border also in
relation to the EU issues about which I briefed you in my memorandum.
Mr Rowlands
148. Just one brief point coming back. You
are a very close watcher of the Spanish press and the Spanish
media. Has either the Spanish press or media reported the Summit
in any respect in relation to Gibraltar?
(Mr Caruana) Given a foretaste, did you say?
149. No. You are a close watcher of the
Spanish media and the Spanish press in particular about Gibraltar,
and you produced evidence when we were there about the way that
Gibraltar issues are presented to the Spanish public. Has there
been any Spanish media or press comment on the Summit meeting
in relation to Gibraltar?
(Mr Caruana) No, very little. There has been one
Spanish press report, which is not the most authoritative of the
Spanish newspapers, which said that Sr Aznar would have briefed
the Prime Minister on his intention to offer President Clinton,
who the Spanish Prime Minister was going to see subsequent to
the Summit, the offer of wider use of the Rota base for the American
forces. With that exception we have had nothing in the Spanish
press either which may mean that both Prime Ministers agreed between
themselves to put on a D Notice, or whatever the gentler equivalent
of that is, in relation to this matter, which of course does not
mean that they did not discuss it but simply that they agreed
not to say to anybody what they discussed. I would like to think
that the Government of Gibraltar is in a slightly different category
to the world at large, as indeed this Committee might think about
itself, and that we might safely have been briefed, albeit in
confidence, about what transpired at that meeting.
Ms Abbott
150. I am sorry I was not able to take part
in the visit. It was for domestic reasons. I have studied the
notes and my colleagues have spoken very highly of the presentation
that you made to them. How do you believe that Her Majesty's Government
should balance its interests in fostering good relations with
Spain with its responsibility to the people of Gibraltar? In other
words, what should come first?
(Mr Caruana) It is not just a question of a balance
of interests and responsibilities, although that is an important
part of the equation as well, there is also the not unimportant
matter of Gibraltar's legal rights in an EU context. One of the
points that I make in my memorandum to you is that Gibraltar's
EU rights should not be placed in any balance of convenience,
that the basis upon which allies, particularly democratic allies,
conduct their relations is that they respect each other's rights
as well as each other's obligations. So the starting point would
be that Gibraltar expects its accrued EU rights always to be upheld
and not to be used as a bargaining chip just as our obligations
in the EU are not an á la carte menu for us. In
other words, we cannot pick and choose which of our obligations
we undertake depending on whether they are more or less burdensome
or onerous to us, nor should our rights within the EU be an á
la carte menu which is to be balanced with other things. For
example, the rights of the people of any part of the United Kingdom
in a geographical sense to participate in an EU measure are never
sacrificed. The United Kingdom never says, "This measure
applies to everybody except the citizens of Brighton because we
have put this in the national interest balance and we have judged
that the citizens of Brighton should be excluded." So in
the EU context the starting point has got to be respect for our
EU rights just as we try to adhere to our EU obligations. In the
wider context, we believe that the United Kingdom Government should
recognise the right to self-determination of the people of Gibraltar,
should recognise our right to evolve constitutionally as a people
in accordance with our wishes and should be willing to protect
Gibraltar in the context of the exercising of those legitimate
democratic rights, using its good relations with Spain to prevent
Spain from reacting inappropriately to the exercising of those
rights rather than using those good relations with Spain as a
reason for not wanting to upset them.
151. Does the Government of Gibraltar wish
to be seen as an equal partner in discussions between Spain and
the United Kingdom?
(Mr Caruana) It depends on what those discussions
are about. If those discussions are about Gibraltar, about things
that intrinsically and intensely affect Gibraltar and its people,
then we believe that the most important party at any such talks
is the people of Gibraltar and their representatives, but that
does not mean that we believe that we are a sovereign independent
delegation, we do not represent a sovereign independent country.
So in an international representational context obviously we understand
and we accept and we are very happy to take part with the United
Kingdom in dialogue with Spain, but that does not mean that, in
terms of representing ourselves at that dialogue, Gibraltar cannot
or should not have its own voice separate from the Foreign and
Commonwealth Office that may have different interests to defend
in such talks.
152. Separate but equal?
(Mr Caruana) It depends whether you are talking
about the United Kingdom's interests or Gibraltar's interests.
I could not aspire to speak for the interests of the United Kingdom.
I am neither elected nor paid to do so, but I am elected and paid
to speak for and represent the interests of the people of Gibraltar
and so when we are speaking about Gibraltar and about its future
and about things that affect Gibraltar, certainly I believe that
the Chief Minister of Gibraltar and the Government of Gibraltar
as a whole should be represented as equals.
153. Is the "two flags, three voices"
policy acceptable to you?
(Mr Caruana) Indeed it was when it was available
and it would be again if it became available again. I think the
"two flags, three voices" policy was an ideal formula
into which everybody contributed something. We recognised that
we were not an independent nation state, that there were only
two such independent sovereign states involved, the United Kingdom
and Spain. We were very happy to go under the Union Jack as part
of a British delegation. Indeed, under the protection of a Union
Jack is really the only safe place for Gibraltar to sit in dialogue,
but when it came to the actual conversations there were three
voices, three parties, thus saving Gibraltar's requirement that
we should take part in those discussions in a safe and dignified
manner. I think the "two flags, three voices" formula
achieved that whilst at the same time gave the necessary degree
of comfort to the Spanish side that in matters relevant to independent
nation states they were not according that status to Gibraltar.
154. Finally, what effect has the deterioration
in the relationship with Madrid had on relationships between your
Government and the local authorities across the border?
(Mr Caruana) I think that the policy of the Government
of Gibraltar, at least since we have been in office, has been
to seek to engage Spain at all its administrative and political
levels in whatever degree of dialogue was either relevant or possible.
We have done that at the municipal level, at the mayors' level.
I am now going to do that next month at the provincial Cadiz Province
level. They have a tier of government called the Provincial Deputation.
I have done it at the Andalucian regional government level already
on several occasions, and there are more talks on the cards with
the Andalucian regional government. We would dearly like to engage
the central government in Madrid in dialogue. Relations between
any one of those tiers and the Government of Gibraltar from time
to time does not necessarily affect relations with the others
except to the extent that the Spanish media creates an unfavourable
atmosphere for good relations with Spain. In Gibraltar, for example,
it happened recently during the fishing dispute. There was a crescendo
of Spanish press opinion that Gibraltar was behaving very badly,
and obviously we did not share that analysis of the position,
but it was a reality and this started to cause damage to our cross-border
relations even at a very local level. Except during the three
or four weeks, perhaps as long as two months, that the fishing
crisis was in full swing, so to speak, it has not affected it,
and indeed only last week I had a meeting in Spain with all the
mayors of the local municipality and contacts with the regional
government in Andalucia. We are confident that the fishing situation
is behind us, that we already are back at the good quality relations
that we had at all local levels below the central government in
Madrid. We very much regret that it has not yet been possible
to extend that dialogue approach to the central government in
Madrid as well.
Chairman
155. Accepting that there is this big obstacle—sovereignty—between
yourselves and the Madrid Government, clearly there is some real
advantage in making progress where progress can be made at each
tier of government below Madrid. Can you say a little more about
your own relationship, not only Gibraltar Government's relations
but, for example, trade unions, the chambers of commerce? I understand,
for example, that there is likely to be a seminar bringing together
the chambers of commerce and trying to build up that natural,
or what should be natural, hinterland geographic relationship
between Gibraltar and the adjoining parts of Spain.
(Mr Caruana) Let me say that this is not difficult,
in other words that it is relatively easy and there is very little
resistance on either side to that sort of contact. Chairman, you
are absolutely right, there are now increasing contacts between
trade unions and chambers of commerce, indeed they form a structure
called the Consultative Committee which met only a week or ten
days ago.
156. And obviously you welcome that.
(Mr Caruana) Indeed, both sides, the Gibraltar
side and the Spanish side of that Consultative Committee, are
coming to see me immediately when I get back to Gibraltar and
the Government of Gibraltar much welcomes that. There is no difficulty
and no obstacle on the Gibraltar side to co-operation with Spain
on matters that do not prejudice our sovereignty. The difficulty
that we face is that whereas the Government of Gibraltar enjoys
a wide range of constitutional competencies, really everything
excluding defence, internal security and foreign affairs, so that
we have available to us power, if you like, although that is probably
not the appropriate word, the ability to deliver on issues of
economic co-operation, finding the right interlocutor in Spain
is difficult because they distribute their powers between the
various tiers of government and very often the interlocutors with
whom we speak at a very local level simply do not have the political
or administrative faculties or powers to actually deliver on many
of these issues, for example on economic co-operation. That is
why we think that engaging Madrid in a process of dialogue in
that vein, because ultimately they hold the key of what is a possible
way of co-operation, leaving the question of sovereignty to one
side, will be very helpful in the way forward for all the communities
concerned. What we are not willing to do, Chairman, is to place
our sovereignty on the table as a bargaining chip, or still less
as a price to be paid by us, to engage Madrid in that dialogue
to establish good neighbourly relations of co-operation of that
sort.
Dr Godman
157. Just a couple of minutes ago you referred
to the fisheries dispute. Are we not likely to see that flare
up again?
(Mr Caruana) I hope not. If it does it will not
be because we caused it to flare up. There is a clear understanding
between ourselves and the fishermen involved. We are happy with
it, they are happy with it, the Governor is happy with it, the
Foreign Office is happy with it and the local police are happy
with it. We see no reason why it should flare up. It could only
flare up because one side or other undermines it and that will
not be us.
158. When we were in Gibraltar I saw that
the whole crew of a Spanish fishing vessel had to appear in court
for illegal fishing. I have to say as someone who comes from a
fishing family—my brother is the skipper of a big stern
trawler—I have some experience of the policing of fishing
activities. I have to say that your law to my mind where maritime
nations are concerned is utterly unique. You dragged a whole crew
into court. We do not do that in Scotland. It is not done in England
and Wales or in any other Member State of the European Union.
I have a parliamentary answer here to a question I asked the Secretary
of State for Scotland concerning the impounding of trawlers over
the past few years for illegal fishing and in each and every case
it is the skipper who is brought into court, not the whole crew.
You do not bring the galley boy into court when his skipper decides
to fish illegally. To my mind it might it be that your draconian
law in this sense might exacerbate relations with the local Spanish
fishermen. Might I suggest to you that you amend the law so that
in the future if you encounter more illegal fishing that you pull
the skipper into court and not the whole crew.
(Mr Caruana) I think that the reason for that
derives from the nature of the law that we are discussing. This
is not a fisheries protection law, this is not part of Gibraltar's
maritime law, this is one chapter of a very comprehensive Nature
Protection Ordinance, most of which does not actually relate to
the sea at all but relates to picking flowers on the Upper Rock
and catching rabbits and other things of that sort. The maritime
bits of it, the bits that relate to the sea, are just one part
of the Ordinance. The Ordinance was not cast with trawlers in
mind, it is just a law that speaks of if an individual commits
an offence he shall be prosecuted. The law was not drafted, and
indeed was not focused, on fishing specifically and, therefore,
was not formulated in a maritime and fisheries protection type
legal mechanism. The other reason for that might be that historically
the sorts of fishing boats that have fished in Gibraltan waters
have been very small affairs and they probably do not have a skipper
at all.
159. I thought every vessel had someone
in charge.
(Mr Caruana) If you had three men in a rowing
boat you would be hard put to decide which of them was the skipper.
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